Trans Pennine Express Planned Loco Haulage - Why

[D854_Tiger]

From my understanding, the plan is that these brand new mk5 carriages with class 68 locomotives will only be around for a couple of years as a stop-gap until class 802s are delivered.

 

They are then handed over to some, as yet, unspecified operator.

 

It seems a bit strange to be ordering brand new kit without any long term plan for their eventual use.

[Wild Boar Fell]

I might not remember exactly, but weren't they staying with TPE but moving to a different service/services

[Coryton]

I might not remember exactly, but weren't they staying with TPE but moving to a different service/services

 

That's what I thought. I would imagine the business case would be difficult if there was no plan for them after a few years.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Given current dithering over the future of TransPennine, the "Northern Powerhouse", etc., any sort of sensible procurement policy is going to be tricky.

[mjkerr]

Existing rolling stock is now reaching the end of its life and there is growing demand

This provides an ideal temporary short-term solution whilst a larger fleet arrives with a new operator

I am quite sure in 2021 First can find other uses for them

[black and decker boy]

TPE are getting 3 new fleets to replace the current fleets of 185s and 350/4s (some 185s are kept).

 

1) 68s & mk5 coaches. Initial use supposed to be Liverpool - Newcastle but then moved onto Middlesbrough & ScRborough services when 802s arrive. They stay with TPE long term.

2) EMUs for MCR to Glasgow via WCML

3) class 802 bi-modes for Liverpool - Newcastle and Edinburgh via ECML workings.

 

The 68&mk5 option was taken as it allowed a earlier entry into service. The 802s won't be built until all the GWR ones are complete but also require infrastructure upgrades due to their 26m long body and also to the OLE.

[runs as required]

Are they not going to be retro-fitted with dummy wooden pantographs as part of Chris Grayling's strategy to finance Crossrail II ?

 

dh

[ColinK]

It also gives TPE the option of replacing the 68s with electrics when/if the lines are electrified. I think it is a very good move by TPE as it keeps all traction optios open.

 

Good for the enthusiast too - 68s sound good.

[Robert Shrives]

Also somebody cleverly spotted the obvious putting a bus engine under a train is a mugs game in many ways unless you are an accountant with a company car.  A bus is not a train and all the "noise" about the quiet smooth ride of the Mk3 has not gone unnoticed. It proves the wheel is round as I recall being on a class 45 hauled load 8 on a Bangor - Newcastle service when a nice lady from RR was giving out questionable questionaires on the forthcoming sprinterisation of the route. Got polite but short shrift from me, she wascin a rush as the train was full and she had to leaflet the whole train... penny still not dropping!!!  A month later it was a 2 car 150/2 which rapidly became a 4 car 150/2... but to no avail and today the 185s cannot cope.

 

And in the future an 88 vice 68 makes a sensible option but a bigger fleet to cover the West coast opearation would allow easier rescue of the aging Pendolino fleet- in a flash back to the olden days the 88 could couple to rear of Pendo and push it clear , cannot see a 350 doing that.    It will save the job stopping painful experience of a modern day failure.

Robert      

[TheSignalEngineer]

It also gives TPE the option of replacing the 68s with electrics when/if the lines are electrified. I think it is a very good move by TPE as it keeps all traction optios open.

 

Good for the enthusiast too - 68s sound good.

Just like BR where Mk1s replaced LMS stock on WCML, first hauled by steam then diesel then electric. In fact we even had a few Staniers in Blue/Grey behind electrics.

[ColinK]

And when they find the 5 coach sets are too small, they can order some more coaches and add one or two to each rake.

[TheSignalEngineer]

And when they find the 5 coach sets are too small, they can order some more coaches and add one or two to each rake.

If the platforms are long enough.

[phil-b259]

And when they find the 5 coach sets are too small, they can order some more coaches and add one or two to each rake.

 

However locos take up space - and if space is lacking then 'adding an extra coach' may not be possible.

 

This is one of the key reasons why the current Norwich services are being replaced by EMUS - A loco + DVT takes up a coach and a half of space at Liverpool Street where platforms cannot be extended.

Edited August 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[Robert Shrives]

Agreed LST a problem but elsewhere SDO works a treat, you do need to train the users ... and in many places turn back the clock on cheapskating of  fencing off a long platform and pretending its gone way !  

 

Robert 

[Coryton]

And when they find the 5 coach sets are too small, they can order some more coaches and add one or two to each rake.

 

On the other hand, multiple units can also be extended and adding motor cars means that you don't need to lose performance by lengthening the train.

 

Depending on how the train is set up this may or not be practical...but it isn't a fundamental limitation of multiple units.

 

First generation DMUs were mostly compatible with each other and all sorts of strange combinations worked together at times.

 

(Personally I much prefer locomotive hauled trains both as a passenger and an enthusiast, but I can see why multiple units are so popular).

[Coryton]

Just like BR where Mk1s replaced LMS stock on WCML, first hauled by steam then diesel then electric. In fact we even had a few Staniers in Blue/Grey behind electrics.

 

It would be nice if someone did a model of a Stanier in blue/grey. I would have though it would be a good candidate for a limited edition.

 

However, the fact that it hasn't happened may suggest that I'm wrong...

[Joseph_Pestell]

It would be nice if someone did a model of a Stanier in blue/grey. I would have though it would be a good candidate for a limited edition.

 

However, the fact that it hasn't happened may suggest that I'm wrong...

I think that I am right in saying that all the blue/grey stock was "porthole". So it's a question for Bachmann.

[Coryton]

I think that I am right in saying that all the blue/grey stock was "porthole". So it's a question for Bachmann.

 

Or perhaps someone able and willing to commission limited editions from Bachmann.

 

Hornby did a Gresley restaurant coach in blue grey which I would have thought would have a more limited market (mind, there still seem to be quite a few on the shelves....)

[Fat Controller]

Or perhaps someone able and willing to commission limited editions from Bachmann.

 

Hornby did a Gresley restaurant coach in blue grey which I would have thought would have a more limited market (mind, there still seem to be quite a few on the shelves....)

The blue and grey Portal stock had gone by the beginning of the 1970s, I believe. One of the Gresleys was still going, on the WR, in the summer of 1976; mind you, I believe the Hornby one should have been modified to represent on of the late survivors.

[Coryton]

The blue and grey Portal stock had gone by the beginning of the 1970s, I believe. One of the Gresleys was still going, on the WR, in the summer of 1976; mind you, I believe the Hornby one should have been modified to represent on of the late survivors.

 

From a getting-the-model-strictly-accurate point of view, I believe so.

From Hornby's commercial point of view, probably not.

[jim.snowdon]

The blue and grey Portal stock had gone by the beginning of the 1970s, I believe. One of the Gresleys was still going, on the WR, in the summer of 1976; mind you, I believe the Hornby one should have been modified to represent on of the late survivors.

One of the Gresley refreshment cars was a reasonably regular feature on the Waterloo - Exeter services into the mid-70s.

 

Jim

[Covkid]

TPE are getting 3 new fleets to replace the current fleets of 185s and 350/4s (some 185s are kept).

 

1) 68s & mk5 coaches. Initial use supposed to be Liverpool - Newcastle but then moved onto Middlesbrough & ScRborough services when 802s arrive. They stay with TPE long term.

2) EMUs for MCR to Glasgow via WCML

3) class 802 bi-modes for Liverpool - Newcastle and Edinburgh via ECML workings.

 

The 68&mk5 option was taken as it allowed a earlier entry into service. The 802s won't be built until all the GWR ones are complete but also require infrastructure upgrades due to their 26m long body and also to the OLE.

 

 

There is also the issue of line speed.

As has been said 68s can hustle Mk5s along at 100mph, but once the 802s are delivered they can run at the higher speed where possible - ie York-Newcastle. This means the 68s and stock diversify to other less speedy routes.

[Reorte]

There is also the issue of line speed.

As has been said 68s can hustle Mk5s along at 100mph, but once the 802s are delivered they can run at the higher speed where possible - ie York-Newcastle. This means the 68s and stock diversify to other less speedy routes.

IIRC the Mk 5s that TransPennine are having will be able to run at 125 mph. Is the plan is to run them that fast in the future (are both 68s and 88s 100 mph locos?) or is it just futureproofing?

[Mark Saunders]

IIRC the Mk 5s that TransPennine are having will be able to run at 125 mph. Is the plan is to run them that fast in the future (are both 68s and 88s 100 mph locos?) or is it just futureproofing?

 

91's and Mk iv's were built for 140mph which only got as far as flashing greens around Stoke Bank.

[Coryton]

Mainline (and successors possibly) modelled the LMS Stanier 50' BG in blue grey, correctly, as number M31262M.  This appears in the Bradford Barton book on NPCSS on page 35.

 

Very true - the Mainline ones occasionally appear on ebay at reasonable prices.

 

Up to now Bachmann has only done it in other liveries, but there is a blue-grey one now on their product list...don't know when they will make an appearance though. It's not the most modern of toolings, but I imagine the livery application will be much better than the Mainline one.

 

I think Hornby have a more modern tooling; so far as I know they haven't done a blue/grey version.

 

But I was thinking of the sort of carriage that passengers travel in.