Expanding territory without war

[Ohmisterporter]

In January 1972 the small country of Belize, formally British Honduras and the only English speaking country in Central America, was threatened by its larger neighbour Guatemala. With enemy forces gathering on the border an invasion was prevented by the Royal Navy sending HMS Ark Royal across the Atlantic at high speed to come within range of its Buccaneer bombers. Two of the aircraft flew at extreme range over the capital Belmopan and disconcerted the Guatemalans so much they abandoned the invasion. Any further such plans were put on hold following a disastrous earthquake soon after the events described.* This is a simplistic description of events but I include it simply to set the scene. 

Fast forward to the present day and we now have Guatemalan farmers, gold diggers, loggers, and street gangs moving into Belize to an extent that they possibly outnumber the native English speaking population. If things continue down this route Guatemala will gain control of Belize without a shot fired. And nobody seems to want to do anything about it.

Described in this article from UK Defence viewpoints blog..

 

https://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/articles-and-analysis/the-unacknowledged-crisis-in-central-america

 

* Read more about this episode in Phoenix Squadron by Rowland White.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Ohmisterporter

[Horsetan]

I thought China was doing an excellent job of expanding its territory without war actually being declared. See globalisation, business, South China Sea, etc.

[rockershovel]

Chinese "development aid" and "investment" is dearly bought, as a number of African countries have discovered in recent years.

 

What would you have us do? The Guatemalan government doesn't control these people, it hardly controls its own streets. If we had set up our own gold mining, logging and farming operations - which is the only way to exert influence in such places - great would have been the wailing, rending of garments and gnashing of teeth from the Guardian and the BBC, and as soon as some poor mothers son came back to Brize Norton in a box, the Sun and the Mail would have joined in. George Osborne's chums would have pocketed some MORE taxpayers money, 100,000 Hondurans would have turned up at LHR... no, the best thing is to let events take their course.

Edited September 2, 2017 by rockershovel

[brack]

I thought this thread was going to be about Eastern Ukraine/Western Russia...

[Nearholmer]

Call me an old cynic, but: in what way would it be in UK interests to intervene in Belize?

 

Kevin

[brack]

Call me an old cynic, but: in what way would it be in UK interests to intervene in Belize?

 

Kevin

I'm sort of with you on this sort of (ex)colonial adventure - you wanted independence, I'm afraid that part of what that means is the only fleet sailing to help you should come from the UN. They are a commonwealth realm, but that doesn't confer any military pact or alliance (India and Pakistan are both part of the wider commonwealth, so it's just as well).

[whart57]

Call me an old cynic, but: in what way would it be in UK interests to intervene in Belize?

 

Kevin

 

Didn't the last Tory party chairman effectively own the country?

[Horsetan]

Didn't the last Tory party chairman effectively own the country?

Isn't he the same bloke who obsessively collects Victoria Crosses?

[Bon Accord]

I'm sort of with you on this sort of (ex)colonial adventure - you wanted independence, I'm afraid that part of what that means is the only fleet sailing to help you should come from the UN. They are a commonwealth realm, but that doesn't confer any military pact or alliance (India and Pakistan are both part of the wider commonwealth, so it's just as well).

 

Yeah, what ungrateful sods for wanting a democratically elected government rather than being ruled by a colonial power

 

(P.S. Belize is a close ally of the UK and home to the British Army jungle warfare training unit)

[whart57]

Having just had a look on Google Earth to get a feel for the lie of the earth I have a question. Apart from the frontier along the Sarstoon river and one or two road crossings can anyone on the ground really say where the bloody border is. It looks to be going through virgin forest to me with no settlements, never mind towns, for dozens of miles. In which case if some Guatemalan logger starts chopping trees then who is going to say you can't do that, these are Belizean trees.

[whart57]

Yeah, what ungrateful sods for wanting a democratically elected government rather than being ruled by a colonial power

 

(P.S. Belize is a close ally of the UK and home to the British Army jungle warfare training unit)

 

Well actually a government owned by a couple of British tax dodgers, in charge of a country that exists to launder money, but let's not spoil your fantasy. But now we know why the British government is willing spend a few billion pounds of taxpayers money on a new aircraft carrier.

[Bon Accord]

Well actually a government owned by a couple of British tax dodgers, in charge of a country that exists to launder money, but let's not spoil your fantasy. But now we know why the British government is willing spend a few billion pounds of taxpayers money on a new aircraft carrier.

 

Well as is the case with every other former colony on the planet, the locals would much rather have any government of their own kind (corrupt or no) in charge rather than be ruled by a colonial power which suffers from the historic delusion that it alone knows best on all things. I for one certainly don't blame them for that.

[Nearholmer]

Brack

 

Mine was a cynical, but very genuine question.

 

It might be useful for the UK to have a toehold in the region, but if it is, I genuinely don't know why. Can our subs put in there in emergency, for instance?

 

K

[Bon Accord]

Brack

 

Mine was a cynical, but very genuine question.

 

It might be useful for the UK to have a toehold in the region, but if it is, I genuinely don't know why. Can our subs put in there in emergency, for instance?

 

K

 

Belize serves little purpose in that regard as the surrounding central american countries are either US allies or hate the sight of them and therefore the UK by association.

The "port" at Belize City is in effect a large lagoon protected by coral reefs and entered through a winding, narrow and shallow channel. Minimal facilities and not particularly useful for the RN. Normally when the RN/RFA has a breakdown in the Caribbean they'll slum it somewhere like Curacao, Barbados, the BVI or one of the local US bases e.g. Puerto Rico or Guantanamo.

It's a pleasant enough place with friendly people, an interesting history and creepy crawlies so scary that even the bravest man will run away and scream like a girl.

Like a lot of our former colonies they've struggled since independence in part due to our own past policies in that matter so we do bear a certain responsibility to them, even today.

[rockershovel]

I suppose we shouldn't be offending such allies as we might possess, in the wider scheme of things, but I rather doubt that Belize offers much beyond the opportunity to become involved in ANOTHER protracted, unwinnable military venture a long way away, should we be so unwise as to avail ourselves of it.

 

I wasn't aware that there were connections between the Conservative Party and Belize, but it would hardly surprise me. Dennis Thatcher was linked, through his various directorships, to Coalite Ltd who in turn, owned the Falklands Islands Company... I don't suppose it figured in then-current political decision-making, but it does rather demonstrate the general attitude to such potential conflicts of interest.

 

It's nothing new. Lever Brothers were paid very substantial sums in compensation for rubber trees damaged by the Japanese...

[jjb1970]

Like a lot of our former colonies they've struggled since independence in part due to our own past policies in that matter so we do bear a certain responsibility to them, even today.

I think that sums it up.

[brack]

Yeah, what ungrateful sods for wanting a democratically elected government rather than being ruled by a colonial power

 

(P.S. Belize is a close ally of the UK and home to the British Army jungle warfare training unit)

I wasn't calling them ungrateful, merely pointing out what independence means - we are no longer their protector. The jungle warfare school remains there principally because of the tensions with Guatemala - it was supposed to be mothballed and we could do that training at the Brunei garrison.

 

If the falklands became independent, our bases and garrison were removed and then 30 years later found themselves under attack from Argentina (most likely to distract from economic ruin - some things seem not to change) we'd have no obligation to them. A colony or territory pays taxes towards its defence, an independent country no longer does so, so without a formal alliance how can they expect the old country to still defend them?

 

I have no problem with being part of a UN intervention or deployment but to expect former colonial countries to continually police or intervene in countries which have chosen to be separate and independent is daft.

[brack]

Brack

 

Mine was a cynical, but very genuine question.

 

It might be useful for the UK to have a toehold in the region, but if it is, I genuinely don't know why. Can our subs put in there in emergency, for instance?

 

K

We have several british overseas territories in the Caribbean that give us a toehold, but I suspect if we needed somewhere to put ships/planes etc in that region we might be more likely to use US navy facilities - generally any operations we're involved in around central America or the Caribbean are going to be with US approval as they regard it as their back yard - look at the various central American entanglements as part of a modern day Monroe doctrine.

[Bon Accord]

I wasn't calling them ungrateful, merely pointing out what independence means - we are no longer their protector. The jungle warfare school remains there principally because of the tensions with Guatemala - it was supposed to be mothballed and we could do that training at the Brunei garrison.

 

If the falklands became independent, our bases and garrison were removed and then 30 years later found themselves under attack from Argentina (most likely to distract from economic ruin - some things seem not to change) we'd have no obligation to them. A colony or territory pays taxes towards its defence, an independent country no longer does so, so without a formal alliance how can they expect the old country to still defend them?

 

I have no problem with being part of a UN intervention or deployment but to expect former colonial countries to continually police or intervene in countries which have chosen to be separate and independent is daft.

 

You may under a misapprehenseion of what colonialism is/was: it is legitamised theft of a nation's natural resources on a grand scale and abuse/indifference to the inhabitants therein, something the UK had down to a particularly fine art. Despite common UK delusion to the contrary it is neither noble nor pleasant.

The former consituents of our Empire more than paid their dues to the UK for their so called "protection" and then some - not that they had any choice in the matter - so yes, we still bear a responsibility for them and shall do for a long time to come.

The Falklands is an entirely incomparable example because they were an uninhabited set of islands colonised by settlers from the UK and which have always been governed by the laws of the UK or a version very similar thereof, it is noteworthy that that was most certainly was not the case in most other contemporary British colonies. Those islands were not "stolen" from anyone and there was no indigenous people subjugated against their will.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Bon Accord

[Andy Y]

Well actually a government owned by a couple of British tax dodgers, in charge of a country that exists to launder money, but let's not spoil your fantasy. But now we know why the British government is willing spend a few billion pounds of taxpayers money on a new aircraft carrier.

 

Please pack it in with your overly-political posts please. It's about as popular here as talking toy trains on a politics forum would be.

[Andy Y]

It's nothing new.

 

 

And you.

[tomparryharry]

Politics? Nah....!

 

LMS maroon? Now we're getting serious!

 

Fred the Office Boy.

 

Laughing so hard, nearly lost the apostrophe....

Edited September 2, 2017 by tomparryharry

[pete_mcfarlane]

Call me an old cynic, but: in what way would it be in UK interests to intervene in Belize?

 

Kevin

Because we've said we'd defend them through a treaty. As Sir Henry Leach, the First Sea Lord, pointed out in 1982 after the invasion of the Falklands, we have to act otherwise our word as a country counts for very little. We've pledged to defend many other countries from their neighbours, who'd then get ideas that we'd not honour our commitments if they invade (with a particular focus on the Kremlin here...). 

 

I think the biggest challenge for the Foreign Office with the Belize/Guatemala dispute is keeping the perception of it on the International stage as being Guatemala threatening its much smaller, defenceless, democratic neighbour. If we sabre rattle too much, the Guatemalans will be able to use that to claim that *they* are the sweet innocent victims of bullying by a much larger power.  In much the same way that Argentina makes regular nonsensical claims about British military expansionism in the South Atlantic.

[whart57]

Please pack it in with your overly-political posts please. It's about as popular here as talking toy trains on a politics forum would be.

 

Stop posting political threads then. If the Royal Navy gets involved in Belize, as OhMisterPorter up top suggests might be necessary, then that will be a political decision. Guatemala offers absolutely no threat to Britain thus it's not a defence issue, it's a political issue of what interests Britain is prepared to use military resources on. And then that will depend on who does the lobbying. The fact that a very senior person in our government party has very extensive interests in Belize, so extensive that the Belize government does not dare to go against them, is a very significant factor. It is not overly political to say so. After all you and me both will be paying for the diesel or whatever frigates run on and the pay of the ratings on board.

[Ohmisterporter]

I don't suppose for one moment that the people of Belize threw off one colonial power simply to be taken over by another.