Layout Help Please

[The Johnster]

It's just that I don't know of anyone that's done it that way, Ed.  The standard way to motorise a turntable is to drive the central shaft through reduction gearing; a motor bogie running around a circle of track would not only look wrong (at least in the sense that I know no prototype where this was done), but be very difficult to get to run smoothly and slowly enough on a curve that sharp.  I don't see that the fixing of pieces of ply to the top of them has any bearing (sorry!) on the above point.  I think you are worrying too much about this at the moment anyway; you need to complete the baseboards before you start the final planning and laying of track!

[Ed Winterbury]

True! Any help/suggestions on the baseboards?

[Siberian Snooper]

A minimum of 6mm ply,with 9mm ply where two boards butt together. 18mm square timber to reinforce the corners and some diagonals to stop twist. I would recommend about 75mm deep under the track bed, as a minimum, they may be lower say 50mm if the track is on an embankment. I only use ply trackbeds about 15mm wider than the track, the spaces filled with polystyrene insulation sheet to keep the weight down. When cutting the polystyrene remember it's very messy and also tends to clog up vacuum cleaner filters and is right pita.

 

Buy your ply from a builders merchant or timber merchant, not diy warehouses as the quality is usually lacking.

[Ed Winterbury]

Well, I meant given that fact that I have several un-braced MDF Boards as outlined earlier.

[Ed Winterbury]

I have some bad news- in the past few minutes, the household authorities have said that window access is vital to the existence of a layout. Sorry for the last-minute spanner in the works! All plans are possible now, even a 12'x8' loop, but that's a maybe.

[The Johnster]

Again, what Siberian said, unless you are using the MDF boards you mentioned earlier.  If you're doing that, they need bracing lengthways and to resist twisting.  There are several ways of going about this, and for a semi permanent layout that does not have to be taken down for transport to shows, my solution would be to extend the longitudinal bracing across the baseboard joins to ensure that the joins are smooth and level.  I prefer to attach my baseboards firmly to the wall in order to achieve a solid unmoving foundation for the trains, but like you live in rented accommodation and have to consider the landlord's feelings on the matter; my layout is hence free standing, and a cobbled up mishmash of boards and bracing with ad hoc support that I wouldn't recommend to anyone, but it does work! 

 

The basic supports are 2 Ikea metal framed wooden topped dining tables that were donated by the landlord as going spare from another flat.  The base boards themselves are 3 Ikea MDF shelves, coated in pine melamine and skipraided.  Bracing is overkill, heavy duty timber left over from a garden fencing job.  The 'station' board sits diagonally across the first table, angled to run into a bay window area, and the 'country' board between it and the fiddle yard is parallel to the front of the bay at 45 degrees to the station board and forming a bridge between the two tables.  This bridge is supported in the middle by a cabinet of drawers with some packing on the top to maintain level  The other table has the fiddle yard board laid over it and overhanging a little at the back, with my bedside table actually partly beneath the layout.  The vacant areas of table provide workbench space.

 

it is, to be honest, all a bit crude and rough, weighs more than the Queen Mary and I mean the liner, not the brake van, but very solid.  Solid is not just important as a matter of workmanship; you do not want something that wobbles your stock off the road ever time a door is closed in the next building!  Fixing between baseboards and tables is by clamps, not screws, as they are the landlord's property and I have no wish to damage them in any way.

 

You should be able to do much better than this, Ed.  I'd suggest a similar approach, though, with solid tables and chests of drawers (useful for stock storage) and the braced and strengthened MDF boards on top.  Your 'just now' post about spaniards in the works may mean a re-appraisal of the basic track plan and positioning of the boards; we'll 'workshop' through all that over the next few days, but the basic principles of solid foundations with other uses besides railway supporting braced MDF boards seems to be the way to go in your case whatever happens.

 

Nothing is written in stone, however, and it might be that the new situation means a different approach, particularly if a lifting or removable section is needed to clear window access!  The overengineering and excess weight of my approach will have to be substituted with something much lighter and more easily handled if this is the case!  Very few of us have the space we want or even the shape we want, and layouts have to be shoehorned in as best they can; they are still worth the building though, as you will gain experience, have a massive amount of fun, and end up with a better idea of what you want when you move to better accommodation or win the lottery, which won't be this week because it's my turn...

Edited September 25, 2017 by The Johnster

[Ed Winterbury]

Ok, so bracing is a must?

[Ed Winterbury]

The other spanner in the works which must now be mentioned after this 'meeting' with the authorities is that I have an 8' x 2'6" layout which doesn't match my existing layout height-wise- that's how I got the locos. Sorry for the issues list!

[Chimer]

If I understand your constraints accurately, which would be a miracle, it looks to me as if one sensible option would be to put your terminus on 2 of your 6' x 2' boards on the left hand wall, departing trains taking a sharp left turn onto a removable section across the window leading to a fiddle yard (either 8' x 2' or 10' x 2' depending on how much space there is to the right of the window).  My "left" and "right" relate to the diagram at post #20.

 

Yes, bracing is essential, sorry.  I think around a dozen contributors have said that so far?

 

Your turntable idea is, in my humble opinion of course, simply insane.

 

Best of luck!

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

If you don't brace and strengthen the MDF, Ed, it will warp, and twist out of level, as well as sagging in the middle as we all do when we get older and hence raising into peaks at the edges.  This will totally mess up any chance of smooth running and induce derailments and pickup issues at the baseboard joins in addition to your stock rolling all over the place and ending up where it isn't wanted instead of in the sidings you put it in.

 

I realise that you may not be familiar with or comfortable with this sort of working with wood, but, trust me, I can do it which means it's really easy, and in fact once you get started, your guy DNA will kick in and you'll start enjoying it, and telling other guys about it in the pub.  You Da Man, my man!

 

Go out and spend some of your pocket money on the following items; an electric drill with some bits for drilling wood, some G clamps (cheapo plastic ones are fine), an electric screwdriver with some bits, and packets of screws, brass, long and short.  Also a bottle of PVA glue, some paper face masks to scare the household authority and keep her out of the way while you are doing man things, and a cheapo plastic visor to protect your Beautiful Eyes.  Just buying these things, especially the power tools, will get the testosterone going!

 

You are now equipped to build your baseboards!  Further info when you've started and got stuck; it's what we're here for, mate!

[Siberian Snooper]

Wot The Johnster said and I would add a saw to that list. A mask is a definite requirement for working with MDF. Aldi & Lidel sometimes have cheap drill sets suitable for a bit of light DIY.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Siberian Snooper

[Ed Winterbury]

Actually, what you have just described has already started to happen! I will brace them ASAP.

[Ed Winterbury]

Could we start re-working the track plan?

[Ed Winterbury]

The 'Thanks' by whom??? I'd like to work on the track plan is what I meant. Help requested. The added requirement is the access to the window on the bottom of the diagram. Sorry and thanks!

[ejstubbs]

The 'Thanks' by whom??? I'd like to work on the track plan is what I meant. Help requested. The added requirement is the access to the window on the bottom of the diagram. Sorry and thanks!

 

You can find out who has "thanked" you by clicking on the "List" link next to the total.  The same goes for the other ratings that people can give your posts.  (In this case it might just have been a phantom click or finger trouble.)

 

It might be easier for people to help with changes to the layout if you could post the diagram that needs modification.  I can't see a "this is my current thinking" diagram in the thread (though that might just be me).  If there is one, please re-post it, or link to the post where it appeared.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Ed Winterbury]

No, you can't see one of those diagrams because I wanted to do Minories (is an explanation needed???) but access to the sliding window (sometimes called a Juliette Balcony) is required by household authorities. The flat's floorplan is in post 20. For reference, the wall on the left is just over 12'. Due to this spanner in the works, everything has to be re-considered.

[Chimer]

I made a suggestion for dealing with the window issue in post 184.  You didn't respond, possibly because I added a couple of things you didn't want to hear.  But I'm still here - just.

 

It's not easy to scale measurements off the post 20 diagram.  We need to know the accurate length of the left hand wall, the space to the left of the window, the space to the right of the window, and the width of the window.  And I've no idea what the existing 8' x 2'6" layout at a different height, which popped up as a new constraint in post 183, has to do with the price of fish.  Has that got to fit in the room too?

 

Depending on the measurements, a version of Minories (ish) with the terminus on the left-hand wall may still be possible.

 

Chris

[Siberian Snooper]

The other alternative is to get the boards in position and post a few photos with a tape measure, so that we can see what there is to play with. Pictures are better than words or at the very least a dimensioned drawing of the boards as layed out.

 

If I remember correctly, the original Minories fitted a 12 foot by 1 foot space or 3.648 Metres by 305mm in new money, including the fiddle yard.

[The Johnster]

The room plan you posted in post no.20 gives 13 feet clear along the left hand wall, well away from the kitchen area and the Juliet window, which I assume is the one in the bottom wall of the plan.  If you need to avoid the Juliet altogether, this may be the only space you have in which to fit the complete layout including the fiddle yard and you will need to rethink the whole scheme on a much smaller scale, but if you can negotiate with the Domestic Authority for a removable hinged or lifting section in front of the Juliet, which will give full access to it so that she can lean out of it and Romeo can serenade her (!) but can be easily replaced when you are running, it can be an approach to a fiddle yard which is to the right of it on the bottom wall; this gives you a 13 foot plus run of scenic, then the liftout/folding section, then the fiddle.  

 

Even if the former situation is the case and you cannot cross the Juliet, so that everything has to be scaled down, this is not the end of the world, but you may have to abandon some of your ideas for big trains and engines and have a branch layout or shunting problem.  It will, I promise, still give you a lot of pleasure to build and operate, and you will be surprised how busy you can make a very small terminus; they were not by any means all 'train as required every alternate Thursday in Leap Year October if you were lucky' places!  Cardiff Clarence Road, for example; a single platform at the end of a double track short branch that saw 8 trains in the hour between 8 and 9 in the morning, and was as busy in the evening rush hour, along with local freight traffic serving a canal wharf and private sidings into various engineering factories, plenty to keep you on your toes if you ran to a real time timetable sequence.

 

If you can have a lifting section across the Juliet, it needs to be a simple, probably single track but certainly no more than double, lightweight and easy to manhandle construction to be lifted out and stored out of the way or folded up/down out of use to clear the Juliet when you are not operating the layout.  Electrical connections can be as simple as brass locating pins and bushes for a lift out that double as connectors.  The fiddle yard might have a shelf over the top of it for extra workspace, but leave plenty of headroom to be able to handle stock in there!

 

If Siberian's measurements for the original Cyril Freezer Minories are correct, and he usually is, you can fit it on your left hand wall with a foot to spare.

 

Nil desperandum, Padawan, all is not lost...

Edited September 27, 2017 by The Johnster

[Ed Winterbury]

No, no post was missed, just absorbed the information quietly. The branch may be an idea as well, so can I please have some help?

[Siberian Snooper]

No, no post was missed, just absorbed the information quietly. The branch may be an idea as well, so can I please have some help?

I refer the Gentleman to post 193. Please help us to help you.

[ejstubbs]

No, you can't see one of those diagrams

 

You see, it's that kind of response that's likely to put people off helping you.  You keep asking for help but without being at all clear about what it is that you need help with.  You've told us that there is an issue with access to a window, but really without knowing where you were planning to put the layout in relation to the window, and what elements of the layout might be compromised by having to provide the necessary access, it's not at all easy for people to come up with anything more than very general suggestions.

 

It's unrealistic to expect everyone else to remember where you'd got to in your plans and designs.  Post a picture so we can see what's currently in your mind, rather than trying to envisage it for ourselves.  Draw it on the back of an old envelope, take a photo of it on your phone and post it on here!

 

If nothing else, at least please post a version of your room floor plan which is bigger than postage stamp!!

 

... just absorbed the information quietly ...

 

Which is fine up to a point, but if you provide some feedback in response to people's advice - "good idea but I don't think it'll work in my situation because...", "cunning idea and it might provide a way to solve this other problem as well", "here's a drawing of what I think I could do based on what you've said", that sort of thing - then it really helps to move the discussion on.

 

As I wrote way back in post #83: "I'd suggest posting a summary of the ideas you are currently toying with in terms of a layout - ie provide some actual input from yourself.  This will give people an idea of which direction you're thinking of going in, and is likely to spark input from people who have seen or even done something similar."

 

Or as Siberian Snooper said:

 

Please help us to help you.

 

People only do this out of goodness.  Make it easy for them to help and they're more likely to do it.  And by articulating your own ideas and thoughts, you might even realise that you can see a way past some of the problems yourself.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Pete the Elaner]

People only do this out of goodness.  Make it easy for them to help and they're more likely to do it.  And by articulating your own ideas and thoughts, you might even realise that you can see a way past some of the problems yourself.

& crucially, this is for your layout. Asking for help in developing your own ideas is fine, but you don't seem to be asking this.

If you build a layout from other people's ideas, you will end up with something dissatisfying which you will not get very far with.

 

I have done something similar. I started a joint project then ended up on my own so the layout was really a compromise of my ideas & a 'missing half. Making up for this was dissatisfying so I lost interest after getting about half way through it.

After about 3 years of complete inactivity, I stripped the boards & gave these away.

I am now building what I wanted to do 15 years ago & am happy with how it is turning out.

 

Please don't fall into the same trap as me.

[The Johnster]

Pete's advice is very good, Padawan.  I cannot escape the impression that you are not very confident of your abilities and afraid of messing things up, but don't be too hard on yourself, buddy.  Follow a few simple guidelines and don't go specifically against advice such as bracing boards and you will be ok in general, and a few minor things that you could have done better in hindsight are no biggie.  A firm, level, baseboard, well laid track with smooth and level track joins, and simple wiring will almost guarantee you a well running reliable layout which will give you huge enjoyment, and the more of it that comes from your own planning and imagination the more you will be satisfied by it.

 

We can help with general advice, but ultimately the specifics of the pacifics and the antics of the atlantics are down to you (I've been waiting for ages for an excuse to write that!).  You are probably a lot more capable than you think you are; keep reading the articles, asking questions, show us the plans, go to shows, join a club if you want to.  RTR model railways are designed to be reasonably easy to build and operate, in fact once you've done the boards it's basically putting pieces together in what you say is the right order, then doing a bit of painting and detailing to spec.

 

But, once you get to laying out the boards and drawing track plans, which is the stage you are now very close to once the Juliet issue is solved (or not!), we will be able to help much more when we've seen plans, even if they are only rough drawings; engineering blueprints are not necessary!

 

I sort of get it, mate.  You're about to make what feels like an irreversable decision, a leap into an abyss of unknown problems and shark infested custard, or was that something else.  FWIW, I think you'll probably be ok if we can steer you clear of the worst errors, and that shouldn't be rocket science.  You're building a domestic layout, not going to the moon; going to the moon was rocket science!

 

Oh, and I second Siberian's suggestion to buy a saw, an electric jig saw.  But don't tell the Domestic Authority or she'll have you booked to do all sorts of things with it and we'll never finish the layout...

 

I know you want to crack on with track plans, but we need to know the definitive final size and shape of the layout before we can advise you about that!

Edited September 28, 2017 by The Johnster

[Ed Winterbury]

What I meant by 'No, you can't see one of those diagrams' is: 'There isn't one up (yet). About the larger floorplan, I bought the flat new-build and the only floorplans I have are ones for the whole floor in the brochure. That's just how big it gets once I've cropped the photo, so the irrelevant bits aren't on there.