Layout Help Please

[The Johnster]

I think I'm going to risk board sag, so there's no more kitchen issues, just layout design and space. Once more, any design is ok, including branches.

 

'Risking' board sag is a decision only you can take, but if you decide to build on MDF boards without bracing them properly first, which I think is what you mean by 'risking board sag', then I would advise allowing for packing and clamping in the future.  If your boards sag in the middle because there is unsupported weight on them (a bift of plaster and scenery will press down on them quite a lot), they will rise at the joins to form peaks, which is a guaranteed way of inducing pickup problems as half your locos' wheels will be in mid air, derailments as they fail to land back on the track over curves, and coupling issues as the height of the couplers above the railhead is compromised, plus it'll look awful, with Grand Canyon sized gaps in the layout.

 

If this happens you will need to pack your boards in the middle where they are sagging and clamp them to something solid at the ends, not to mention to each other in order to maintain smooth running over the joins.  Trust me, poor running will sap your enthusiasm quicker than just about anything else; this is why getting the boards right in the first place is so vital and why we are banging on about it a bit.   If the sag and peak cycle progresses beyond a certain point, the boards will crack and the layout will be effectively useless.  I'd say you need to avoid that situation.   

 

Levelling and adjoinment issues of this sort are the bane of exhibition layouts that have to cope with dubiously levelled floors, extreme climatic conditions, and the odd bump and knock, and all sorts of cleverness is usually built in to the baseboard design of such layouts, which also need to be light and easily set up and taken down, especially taken down when everyone is tired after the show and wants to get on the road home; your layout does not need such measures as a permanent feature of your home and will be much easier to provide effective baseboards for as a result, but you still have to get this aspect right before building the railway.  Sorry to bang on about this, but it is beginning to sound as if you are about to make a classic, irreversible, and avoidable error; if you go ahead and make it after reading this, then at least I've done my best!

[Ed Winterbury]

Ok, Johnster, I will consider bracing them, but I can't replace them. I'm also not going to take it to an exhibition. Now, can we move on and discuss the way the boards are laid out and also track plans? I'm still considering a Minories, but all ideas still possible, from busier branches all the way to the more iconic main lines.

Thanks and please keep the ideas coming!

[Mod4]

Ed please can you cease the unnecessary, pestering and repetitive pleas (some of which I have already deleted) to keep ideas coming as it will potentially put other members off further replying and clutters up the VNC screen. 

 

And yes having a brain the size of a planet I do the the irony in this post too, but hopefully the longer term benefit / change in the OP posting behavour will be worth it...

[Ed Winterbury]

I know, but I need to keep the thread 'bumped' otherwise I can't get the advice I need.

[Ed Winterbury]

I now want to do an expanded Minories design, please keep the ideas coming.

[The Johnster]

Your boards, suitably sealed and braced, can be placed against the wall with the window in and up the left hand side (as shown on your plan) in an L shape.  I believe I covered this previously; the long boards go along the long wall and the shorter ones up the side wall.  Draw up a scale plan of the room, cut out card formers to represent the boards to scale, and position them on the plan to obtain the arrangement that suits you best.  You then need solid trestles or supports to hold them up, and fixings to attach the layout securely to the walls.  If this is an upstairs room, fixing to the wall is doubly important to ensure stability as the floorboards will inevitably have some movement in them.  Your tenancy agreement probably has a clause requiring you to make good any holed drilled into the walls, another thing to bear in mind.

 

To ensure that the boards are level and the joins smooth, wooden 'plates' screwed to the underside across the joins should hold them in position.  Now you need to make some decisions about track, stock, and couplings before you lay the track.  There will be a 90 dergree bend around the bottom left hand corner of the room.  I am assuming the station is to go on the long end and the fiddle yard on the short leg of the L.  The critical dimension is the minimum radius on this 90 degree bend, which will determine the type of coupling you can use.  We will need to know both this dimension and the type of coupling you intend to use before offering anything more than generalised advice!

 

You don't need to continually bump the thread, mate, we know you're there and are looking for questions.  I'd rather respond to a question than constantly check postings that don't really progress the situation much.

 

I've also got a brain the size of a planet, by the way, but it's a particularly small and dense planet.  

[Ed Winterbury]

Thank you. I will take the advice in mind. The minimum radius will likely be 438mm Setrack.

Or 3rd

[The Johnster]

Ok, good.  That eases the problem on the 90 degree curve, both in terms of fitting it in and in maximising the length of the fiddle yard and scenic sections.  If you restrict yourself to smaller locomotives and avoid modern 70' stock (mk3 or newer), you should be ok, but check when you are buying new locomotives what the manufacturer's recommended minimum radius is before you buy them!  You will have to be using tension lock or Kaydee couplers for that radius and I will assume t/ls unless you tell me different.

 

The more room you have on the viewed 'scenic' part of the layout, the more room you will have for larger radius pointwork.  The original Minories plan incorporated pointwork of quite sharp radius with the idea of use with locomotives available in those days, Triang or Hornby Dublo 0-6-0s, 0-6-2s, 2-6-2s and 2-6-4s, all versions of locos still available RTR but the older ones were cruder and could manage much tighter curves.  I would seriously recommend using the largest radius pointwork on the visible area that you can; it will make for better running and look much better.  I use Peco medium radius on the scenic part of my layout except for the engine release crossover which is Peco small radius, and my only reverse curve.  No.4 setrack is used in the fiddle yard which, like your will be, is accessed around a sharp bend; there is one no.4 to no.3 curved point in this section.  All my RTR stock runs well through it, including a 42xx 2-8-0, but my Ratio 4 wheelers do not like the no.4 and will not put up with no.3 at all under any circumstances; the rigid couplers foul and derail them.  This may have a bearing on long wheelbase stock in your case.

 

Once you've got the boards laid, we can start planning the tracklaying.  First thing to consider here is the length of the longest train; decide how far away from the end of the board the buffer stops in the platforms are going to be, and make a mark.  Measure from it the length of the longest train, with your biggest engine, and enough room for clearance and make another mark; let's call it platform clearance, pc for short.  Now, go to the other end, and measure the same longest train with biggest engine and clearance distance from the extreme end of the layout back towards the curve and the terminus.  Make another mark; we'll call this one fidde clearance, fc for short.  The distance between pc and fc, around the curve, is where all the pointwork will have to go.  I am making another assumption here, that your fiddle yard roads will fit on to a 4' long board and be capable of accommodating 4 coach trains with the loco.  

 

The principle is that no pointwork goes any where between pc or fc and the ends of the layout, and it is all contained between pc and fc.  Now, make up full size card formers to represent the points you think you'll need and lay them out in position on the boards between pc and fc.  This will tell you the number of curved points and the radius of them for the fiddle yard entrance on the curve, and the final positioning of the station throat pointwork, and show you the length of plain track between them that will contain the scenic break at the entrance to the fiddle yard.  Don't forget that hidden crossovers for trains from the departure side of the station to access the departure side of the fiddle yard that feeds the arrival side of the station and vice versa need to go in as well, or the fiddle yard access road has to come down to a single track at some point which means that trains cannot be arriving and departing from the station simultaneously.

 

There are basically two groups of points, the station throat and the fiddle yard throat, and the card formers will help you visualise their final postions on the layout.  As the layout is semi permanent and does not have to come down for exhibiting, you do not have to worry about laying points over baseboard joins, but, again, it is important that these are level and stay that way.  If the two groups of points overlap, we need to rethink the station pointwork in smaller radii, but you should be ok.  Now, you can go and buy the points, knowing which ones you need, and lay them out in position on the boards; do this temporarily and fix nothing permanently yet.  You will be able to move the assemblies up and down a little to fit the straights that will connect them. You may have to cut or fit a final length of plain track; put it in a vice and attack it gently with a junior hacksaw, and file the cut ends down so that they will accept rail joiners.  Use rail joiners, by the way, as they will ensure smooth alignment and correct levelling.  They look ugly but to all intents and purposes disappear when the track is painted.

 

You should now have the central part of the layout, everything between pc and fc, laid and the only thing remaining to do is the plain track of the platform, siding, and fiddle yard roads.  Let me know when you've done that and we'll look at wiring and test running, and feel free to ask if any problems manifest themselves in the meantime, which they will.

Edited September 14, 2017 by The Johnster

[RJS1977]

Ok, good.  That eases the problem on the 90 degree curve, both in terms of fitting it in and in maximising the length of the fiddle yard and scenic sections.  If you restrict yourself to smaller locomotives and avoid modern 70' stock (mk3 or newer), you should be ok, but check when you are buying new locomotives what the manufacturer's recommended minimum radius is before you buy them!  You will have to be using tension lock or Kaydee couplers for that radius and I will assume t/ls unless you tell me different.

 

The more room you have on the viewed 'scenic' part of the layout, the more room you will have for larger radius pointwork.  The original Minories plan incorporated pointwork of quite sharp radius with the idea of use with locomotives available in those days, Triang or Hornby Dublo 0-6-0s, 0-6-2s, 2-6-2s and 2-6-4s, all versions of locos still available RTR but the older ones were cruder and could manage much tighter curves.  I would seriously recommend using the largest radius pointwork on the visible area that you can; it will make for better running and look much better.  I use Peco medium radius on the scenic part of my layout except for the engine release crossover which is Peco small radius, and my only reverse curve.  No.4 setrack is used in the fiddle yard which, like your will be, is accessed around a sharp bend; there is one no.4 to no.3 curved point in this section.  All my RTR stock runs well through it, including a 42xx 2-8-0, but my Ratio 4 wheelers do not like the no.4 and will not put up with no.3 at all under any circumstances; the rigid couplers foul and derail them.  This may have a bearing on long wheelbase stock in your case.

 

Once you've got the boards laid, we can start planning the tracklaying.  First thing to consider here is the length of the longest train; decide how far away from the end of the board the buffer stops in the platforms are going to be, and make a mark.  Measure from it the length of the longest train, with your biggest engine, and enough room for clearance and make another mark; let's call it platform clearance, pc for short.  Now, go to the other end, and measure the same longest train with biggest engine and clearance distance from the extreme end of the layout back towards the curve and the terminus.  Make another mark; we'll call this one fidde clearance, fc for short.  The distance between pc and fc, around the curve, is where all the pointwork will have to go.  I am making another assumption here, that your fiddle yard roads will fit on to a 4' long board and be capable of accommodating 4 coach trains with the loco.  

 

The principle is that no pointwork goes any where between pc or fc and the ends of the layout, and it is all contained between pc and fc.  Now, make up full size card formers to represent the points you think you'll need and lay them out in position on the boards between pc and fc.  This will tell you the number of curved points and the radius of them for the fiddle yard entrance on the curve, and the final positioning of the station throat pointwork, and show you the length of plain track between them that will contain the scenic break at the entrance to the fiddle yard.  Don't forget that hidden crossovers for trains from the departure side of the station to access the departure side of the fiddle yard that feeds the arrival side of the station and vice versa need to go in as well, or the fiddle yard access road has to come down to a single track at some point which means that trains cannot be arriving and departing from the station simultaneously.

 

There are basically two groups of points, the station throat and the fiddle yard throat, and the card formers will help you visualise their final postions on the layout.  As the layout is semi permanent and does not have to come down for exhibiting, you do not have to worry about laying points over baseboard joins, but, again, it is important that these are level and stay that way.  If the two groups of points overlap, we need to rethink the station pointwork in smaller radii, but you should be ok.  Now, you can go and buy the points, knowing which ones you need, and lay them out in position on the boards; do this temporarily and fix nothing permanently yet.  You will be able to move the assemblies up and down a little to fit the straights that will connect them. You may have to cut or fit a final length of plain track; put it in a vice and attack it gently with a junior hacksaw, and file the cut ends down so that they will accept rail joiners.  Use rail joiners, by the way, as they will ensure smooth alignment and correct levelling.  They look ugly but to all intents and purposes disappear when the track is painted.

 

You should now have the central part of the layout, everything between pc and fc, laid and the only thing remaining to do is the plain track of the platform, siding, and fiddle yard roads.  Let me know when you've done that and we'll look at wiring and test running, and feel free to ask if any problems manifest themselves in the meantime, which they will.

 

Two slight elaborations on this:

 

1) If you are running loco-hauled trains (which were much more common before about 2002), you will probably need a loco release crossover (points) in the platform roads, a loco's length from the buffers (so the loco can uncouple and run round its coaches). The alternative is to have an isolating section (use plastic rail joiners in one rail for this) again a loco length from the buffers to allow the loco off the incoming train to uncouple and a new loco to couple on the other end to take the train out. Either option will shorten the length of train you can get in the platform.

 

2) Not all platforms need to be the same length. So you can have long main platform roads, but with one or more shorter roads off them which again could put pointwork in different places. 

[BoD]

If you decide to go for something thin along the side of the room or a smaller layout to try your ideas on then this topic from an old version of RMweb has thirty odd pages of designs, one of which you may find you like. There is certainly enough material to give you ideas that you might adapt into something of your own. Have fun.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24472

[The Johnster]

Two slight elaborations on this:

 

1) If you are running loco-hauled trains (which were much more common before about 2002), you will probably need a loco release crossover (points) in the platform roads, a loco's length from the buffers (so the loco can uncouple and run round its coaches). The alternative is to have an isolating section (use plastic rail joiners in one rail for this) again a loco length from the buffers to allow the loco off the incoming train to uncouple and a new loco to couple on the other end to take the train out. Either option will shorten the length of train you can get in the platform.

 

2) Not all platforms need to be the same length. So you can have long main platform roads, but with one or more shorter roads off them which again could put pointwork in different places. 

 

 

Minories, which Ed has opted to build, depends on loco release by pilot or top and tailing with a fresh loco, and doesn't need a loco release, and all the platforms are the same length.  I agree than some platforms can be shorter and that pointwork 'off the side' of the plan, away from the station throat, can be elsewhere but feel it best to keep things simple for now.  A loco release crossover eats into train length at both ends of the platform; stock has to be set back to clear it, which is usually at least twice the length needed just for the loco headshunt.

[Ed Winterbury]

2nd radius is the common minimum radius, I'll read the rest later.

[Ed Winterbury]

I think all the advice has been great! Thanks!

I will take into account all of the tips.

[Ed Winterbury]

Probably I will leave the train trapped in.

[Ed Winterbury]

Thanks for the help! I am still going to want help on the goods yard.

[Ed Winterbury]

Please keep up the wonderful help!

[Ed Winterbury]

Thanks, and please keep it up!

[The Johnster]

Your goods yard, Ed, when you get to it, will be accessed from one of the side platforms as a kick back.  Don't worry about it yet, you've got a lot of basic work to do before you get to that stage.  I haven't forgotten it, just leaving it for later, one problem at a time; I'm a guy, and can't multitask.  Can't unitask all that well, come to think of it.

 

Please, stop bumping, you're only wasting your own time.

[Ed Winterbury]

Ok, I won't bump in the future. I know you and Pete the Elaner have your eyes peeled, but I also want some other input. Also, what are the other 'basic work' items?

[Pete the Elaner]

My appearances on here depend on where I am working.

 

I often find that some time away from a problem allows me to come up with an answer. I have come to a dead end many times, knowing what I want to do but not how to achieve it. I usually switch to work on something else, even to the point of doing something unrelated with model railways. Several days later, an idea appears in my mind which solves my earlier problem.

 

My inspiration for modelling mainly comes from the prototype. I often see layouts & am impressed with the way they have represented a building's roof or weathered something, but never by the way they may have squeezed in an extra siding.

[Andy Y]

Please keep up the wonderful help!

 

Several readers are getting annoyed with this bumping; you must wait for others to respond, or not, as they see fit - your requirements are no more important than any other members.

 

If it happens again I will just remove the topic altogether.

[ejstubbs]

I am still going to want help on the goods yard.

 

Goods yard options for Minories-based layouts have already been discussed on this thread (albeit admittedly more in the sense of "don't do it this way" - but even that is useful information).

 

There are two fairly active threads on the Layout & Track Design sub-forum about Minories being used as the basis/inspiration for various different layout designs, here and here.  The subject of goods facilities for Minories-based layouts is discussed multiple times on those two threads.  I'd suggest sitting down with a large cup of tea and having a good browse through them.  Even if a particular post doesn't appear immediately relevant to your situation, it might spark ideas/thoughts or at least add to your stock of background knowledge eg regarding realistic operation of trains.

 

You might also want to consider whether you even need dedicated goods facilities.  If you're not that keen on shunting then you could very plausibly get by with nothing more than van traffic using one of the platforms "out of hours".  (On the other hand, if shunting is your thing then I would go out on a limb and suggest that you should steer well clear of Setrack points: IME they are not well suited to situations where slow and careful control of the loco is needed, and their tight radii and large nominal angles are not ideal for propelling moves.)

 

I would also strongly recommend contacting the site admin Andy Y and asking him to move this thread to the Layout & Track Design forum, which is specifically intended for threads discussing design options and recommendations.  Layout topics is more for people to start threads about layouts that they have designed and are in the process of building.  You will likely get more responses if the thread turns up in the right place.

 

Finally, as The Johnster says: please stop bumping.  It really does get rather irritating if a thread is listed as recently updated then, when people look at it to see what's new, all they find is another "gimme" post.  It does not leave a good impression of the poster, and can appear quite demanding and rude.  At the very least have something substantive to say about the way that your own thoughts are going after reading other people's input - that shows that you are taking on board the ideas and suggestions that people are offering out of their own good will, and is a good way to keep the discussion moving forward rather than just seeming to be a dumping ground for everyone else's ideas with no supporting feedback being forthcoming.

[Siberian Snooper]

I only add input when I have something relative to say or to add emphasis too something that has already been posted.

 

You need to sit down and do some doodling, it helps with the creativity, don't expect all one way traffic. A little input from you would be helpful to us as it gives us something to work with.

[5BarVT]

Thanks for the help! I am still going to want help on the goods yard.

I have a plan for what is essentially an extended minories.  I want shunting so I am using parcels traffic to give that.  Newcastle 1970's certainly had enough moving of parcels stock to justify what I'm intending to do.

Paul.

[Ed Winterbury]

Ok, Paul. Do you have a layout thread?

I'm expecting a moderator will read this post at some point, so I would like to apply for a move to the 'Track Layout&Design' Section.