Layout Help Please

[Ed Winterbury]

Welcome to this thread's new home! Track and Design is where you'll find it now.

[ejstubbs]

 

Welcome to this thread's new home! Track and Design is where you'll find it now.

 

We should have a house warming party!

 

There's a plan for Minories with a two-siding goods yard in what I think is the latest edition of 60 Plans for Small Locations (the 1989 edition - mine is the 2014 ninth impression).  It's plan number SP36 on page 21.  (I can't post a scan of it here for copyright reasons but the booklet is readily available in model shops and online, and isn't at all expensive.)  In the plan the sidings are shown as 'parcels' but there's nothing to stop you putting a small goods shed and crane - or anything you like, really - there instead.  So long as you had a bit more width available then it would be straightforward to add more sidings if you wanted to.

 

The plan is better than Cannons Cross IMO because the goods yard is accessed directly from a separate headshunt parallel to 'platform 3'.  That reduces the amount of to-ing and fro-ing required before an incoming freight could be shunted.  The idea would probably be that goods trains would be shunted on arrival by the train engine.  Alternatively, the train engine could propel the train from the headshunt in to a 'reception' siding, then toddle off to be coaled and watered at the stabling point while the station pilot did the shunting and assembled the outgoing train.  Departure in that case would be by the pilot hauling the outbound train in to the headshunt, then uncoupling and sitting on the buffers while the train engine coupled to the front of the train and took the train out.

 

This post on the Minories track plan wanted thread goes in to the differences between the two approaches in a bit more detail (I'm not sure about that run-round on the headshunt, though - it seems to detract from the simplicity of the Minories concept).

 

This post on the Minories Holborn Viaduct thread has drawings of a modular version of Minories which CJ Freezer apparently published in the 1981 'extra' issue of Model Railways, which includes a goods yard on a separate baseboard, accessed by a rather complicated junction off the main line before the station throat.

 

There's a good article about shunting goods trains on a small terminus layout in the November 2003 issue of Railway Modeller.

 

You can usually pick up old issues of magazines on eBay for not much money.

 

I'm expecting a moderator will read this post at some point

 

For future reference, you can send Andy Y a private message by clicking on the "Send me a message" button on his profile page that I linked to in my previous post.  That's a lot more reliable than simply hoping that he will read your post (out of hundreds, possibly into the thousands) that are posted every day.  (I think it worked this time because he was keeping an eye on the thread after his post yesterday.)

Edited September 16, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Ed Winterbury]

Sounds good!

[5BarVT]

Ed,

I lost your thread in the move, but have found it now.

As you can see, a three platform minories, with above the third platform a parcels platform and siding. An arriving parcels can run straight in (or into the passenger platform), a departing parcels is made up and placed in the top passenger platform for departure.  I have added a loco release crossover in the platforms - this works for short trains, but longer expresses are taken out by a new train loco.  To give an idea of scale, the bars below are 12" and 3" in OO.

Paul.

[Ed Winterbury]

Seems like a pretty good plan, but I will have a kickback, like a pure Minories project. The differences will be: The loco siding on the 'North' of the layout will become a two-track engine shed and the kickback siding will be a multi-road yard.

More ideas still appreciated!

[The Johnster]

Seems like a pretty good plan, but I will have a kickback, like a pure Minories project. The differences will be: The loco siding on the 'North' of the layout will become a two-track engine shed and the kickback siding will be a multi-road yard.

More ideas still appreciated!

 

 

Now you're cooking, Ed!  How are the baseboards coming along?

[Ed Winterbury]

I'm currently in London, so I can't do anything practical. Just track planning. P.S. I bought Hornby's 4P TTS yesterday.

[Ed Winterbury]

Well, the track design is being developed. I'm thinking of a line that's in the process of being singled under Beeching, which is why the line plunges into the scenic break with only one running line whilst maintaining a grandiose terminus with a newly-built engine shed to replace an off-scene depot. Still, I'd like help to develop it further!

[Ed Winterbury]

The fact that I don't want loco release sidings would warrant a loco shed, plus maybe a few loco sidings?

[Chimer]

For me, in steam days, except at the end of branch lines, a "shed" meant a large sprawling depot with full facilities for "turning round" (not only in the sense of a turntable) locos, i.e. coal, water, ash removal.  Even the branch line version, where the main building might just be a "garage" for a single loco, would have these facilities. I can't somehow visualise significant numbers of locos hanging round a stabling point near an urban terminus that didn't have these facilities, nor can I envisage a "newly built" replacement steam shed appearing any time after about 1900 (I'm sure lots of examples to prove me wrong will follow).  If your aim is to keep lots of locos in view, you could perhaps get away with loco sidings off a second line through the scenic break, allegedly leading to a "proper" shed immediately off-scene, i.e. the sidings belong to the shed not the station.

 

Chris

[Siberian Snooper]

A stabling and servicing area would be more probable, like Ranliegh Bridge, just outside Paddington. At Plymouth North Road, there was a turning and servicing area in the triangle to the West of the station. Plenty of others, sheds tended to be more rural as they required a lot of space.

[Ed Winterbury]

There will be a coaling area, together with a water tower, but no turntable. There will be a tank loco and a diesel stabled there, needing no turntable. A Dapol type turntable won't have much room, but there might be an insignificant Dapol or Hornby type turntable. I won't be cutting into the board for a Peco one. A way of turning trains round in the fiddle yard will also be needed, any ideas? About how prototypical it all is, I am thinking of it this way- the proper facilities beyond were closed down under Beeching, as the line was singled and the station also ceased to be a junction (a branch line trackbed is to be included). The line was still an important station, being the station for a large town and so was a terminus in need of a loco shed. For this reason, the shed was moved to this station. I realise this might be inadequate, but it's the only kind of shed I can fit.

[Chimer]

Beeching basically closed lines.  Losing a branch line is credible, singling a route to an important station retaining a busy enough service to require numbers of locos hanging around perhaps less so. If the facilities of a shed were still needed, the old shed would have been retained.  Stabling point with coal and water yes, shed building no, especially not a new steam shed.  Modern looking diesel garage, maybe.

 

Turning trains: uncouple loco, run onto Peco locolift or similar, lift away.  Roll train forward, put (different?) locolift down at other end, couple up, return to terminus (train will run happily through locolift if no room to remove in advance).  Also remove and shift brake van if an old style goods train. 

http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=0&P_ID=17331&strPageHistory=search&numSearchStartRecord=1

 

Other solutions like cassettes holding whole trains which can be lifted and turned possible, but might require a bit of hacking into your baseboards.  Or replacing one 18mm board with a 9mm board (!) and using 9mm bases for the cassettes

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79232-cassette-construction/

 

[Siberian Snooper]

If the service warranted singling of the line, it certainly wouldn't warrant having a new shed. Diesels need fewer facilities, most diesel facilities were built on the site of old steam sheds as were dmu facilities. Any space surplus to requirements in an urban area was sold off for redevelopment.

[Ed Winterbury]

I know but it's the only kind of shed I can fit. Any suggestions?

Also, my indulgences include a second-hand resin shed.

[The Johnster]

I think an essential element of Minories is that it is a double track suburban terminus (though a provincial terminus for a fair sized town is a valid alternative), and that the sort of 'rationalisation' that had resulted in a singling of the track would have meant a drastic reduction in the facilities at the station, perhaps a reduction to a single platform.  Not sure what you want to achieve with the single track idea, Ed; it saves a bit of length and a pair of crossovers on the fiddle approach but nothing else. 

 

The engine shed building, which I am guessing is a single road sort of thing, could be included in a general sort of locomotive servicing area as the outstation shed for the station pilot, under Rule 1.  There really isn't room for a turntable, so tender locos will have to run off layout tender first to an imaginary shed on the other side of the tunnel, and then run back in tender first, either directly on to their trains or to the servicing point to be kept on hand.  Turning trains is something else.  There is no need to turn entire trains, just run them into the fiddle yard, uncouple the loco, and carry it to the other end of the train turning it around while you do so.

 

If you wanted to turn the entire train, the best way to do this is with some sort of cassette system of removable fiddle yard roads, but with cassettes 4 feet long or more it might be a bit unwieldy in practice.

[Ed Winterbury]

The reason for the single track is primarily because of the fiddle yard crossovers being a bit too long.

[Chimer]

The reason for the single track is primarily because of the fiddle yard crossovers being a bit too long.

 

That's the advantage of cassettes (or a traverser in some circumstances) - no fiddle yard pointwork, so no loss of length.

[Ed Winterbury]

Is there a way of doing a traverser/sector plate without complex wiring?

[Harlequin]

Is there a way of doing a traverser/sector plate without complex wiring?

If you are using DCC, yes.

 

Just wire all the left rails to each other and all the right rails to each other using the same convention for left and right as the rest of the layout, then take just one pair of flexible wires off one of the tracks to your DCC controller.

 

The wires between tracks can either be on top of the board, crossing from one track to the next under the rails or you can drill holes and take the wires underneath the board.

 

That way all tracks have power and control signal all the time. There's a small danger you might select a loco and drive it off the traverser by mistake but you just have to be careful and the trade-off is the simpler wiring.

 

PhilM

Edited September 19, 2017 by Harlequin

[Ed Winterbury]

I have taken the suggestion into account and am thinking of installing chocolate blocks + a traverser. Also, there may be the space for a shed with the necessary facilities if I use a traverser. This is because the 2' used for a fan of points is negated. This could solve the shed problem. I will need help on these issues, and thanks for the support so far!

[Ed Winterbury]

Would someone be able to give me rough dimensions for this depot? Thanks!

Is there an alternative for a limited space?

The depot will have to fit in a very limited space.

[DCB]

That's the advantage of cassettes (or a traverser in some circumstances) - no fiddle yard pointwork, so no loss of length.

The drawback is excess width.  Traversers are all about length width compromise. A standard traverser has to traverse so all the traverser tracks can align with all the incoming and outgoing tracks. so a 6 road traverser has to traverse 11 roads width for single track, 12 for double etc, so you need 24" travel for 6 roads minimum.  You can S bend the first 2 feet on the outer roads to reduce the sideways travel at the expense of reducing usable length.  

You could get 11 fiddle yard roads in that. I once designed a "Hockey Stick" traverser to minimise this length width trade off on L shaped layouts.

 

I know but it's the only kind of shed I can fit. Any suggestions?

Also, my indulgences include a second-hand resin shed.

 

Low relief sheds are good. You can't see what is in them so why bother with a working one. Mine was 3" long into the backscene, double track and either the doors were shut of you could see the back of a 61XX and the front of another, 2 halves of the same plastic Airfix kit.

Loco sidings with inspection pits, a water crane and maybe a turntable would be more interesting than a shed.

 

For me, in steam days, except at the end of branch lines, a "shed" meant a large sprawling depot with full facilities for "turning round" (not only in the sense of a turntable) locos, i.e. coal, water, ash removal.  Even the branch line version, where the main building might just be a "garage" for a single loco, would have these facilities. I can't somehow visualise significant numbers of locos hanging round a stabling point near an urban terminus that didn't have these facilities, nor can I envisage a "newly built" replacement steam shed appearing any time after about 1900 (I'm sure lots of examples to prove me wrong will follow).  If your aim is to keep lots of locos in view, you could perhaps get away with loco sidings off a second line through the scenic break, allegedly leading to a "proper" shed immediately off-scene, i.e. the sidings belong to the shed not the station.

 

Chris

 

Operationally Minories was a Urban terminus of Suburban trains.  Trains arrived, a new engine coupled on, and off it went again, with the loco to the loco spur, very Great Eastern.

If you expand it to have main line arrivals then Main line train arrives.  Pilot loco couples on and takes the train to be cleaned inside and WC water tanks refilled at carriage sidings.   Train Loco follows to be watered and turned. At Paddington to avoid congestion this was at Ranelagh bridge a couple of miles away not Old Oak Common Loco depot a bit further down the tracks.

After a while, anything from half an hour to several hours later the loco departs again on another train, which is brought in by a pilot engine.

This way the train can be kept moving. in with a train loco, out with a pilot, back with a pilot out with the train loco

On an expanded Minories, if the "Goods" sidings are given over to carriage sidings with the characteristic staging between tracks, the pilot can remove the coaches and push back into the sidings, later pulling them out to push back into the platform without trapping the loco.  Or simply push back into a spare platform for the cleaners to do their magic.   This then leaves a shortage of goods facilities, you can't win

[DCB]

MPD Weymouth Club.jpgWould someone be able to give me rough dimensions for this depot? Thanks!

Is there an alternative for a limited space?

The depot will have to fit in a very limited space.

That wont work well, the siding straight tom the turntable is unprototypical and a bit of a recipe for disaster.   The massive 80 foot 15" turntables from Hornby make this configuration ugly.  Bachmann do a UK 50 foot for their  US range which is good for Black 5s, Hall etc but really the turntable needs to be in the corner to make it work.  I did dozens of plans for a similar site before coming up with a cut down 10" Dapol turntable in the corner and a two road shed with a coal stage against the wall.

Edited September 20, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Siberian Snooper]

I use brass tube soldered to the outside of the rails of both the fixed rails and the sector plate rails aligned with L shaped brass wire which is a snug fit in the tube. This also electrically energises the correct track when required, no chance of any errors.