West Coast Partnership Franchise

[corneliuslundie]

XC may not serve Liverpool, but EMT does with its cross country route through Sheffield to Ely and Norwich. I have never understood why it is not part of the XC network.

Jonathan

[Edwin_m]

XC may not serve Liverpool, but EMT does with its cross country route through Sheffield to Ely and Norwich. I have never understood why it is not part of the XC network.

Jonathan

 

The reason is probably that it uses a different fleet and unlike other XC services doesn't go through Birmingham.  With franchises and other railway organisational issues it can be easy to see what's wrong with the current arrangement but difficult to see what's right and will go wrong if changed.  ​When you re-organise you bleed - G Fiennes. 

[D854_Tiger]

Thank you for the responses to my query about 125 mph running on the WCML.

Despite the impression some clearly have,  it is NOT the case that tilt is only used infrequently on a few well known curves; I travelled yesterday, and on the short section Northbound between Roade and Kilsby tunnel (the section where Mr Stephenson meandered around Northamptonshire to keep his line nearly level before diverting via Weedon in case the French got stroppy again) I counted 7 left leans and 6 to the right - mainly pairs in quick succession on S-bends. Maybe this is exceptional, though.

 

The point I was trying to make about tilting was in relation to 125 mph running, I believe there are plenty of stretches currently speed limited at 110 mph, for non-tilting trains, that could be raised for the non-tilt case and the only reason they haven't been is that no one has asked.

 

I would concede however that tilt is also used at lower speeds, I know of sections further north where the non-tilt speed limit is 75 mph but the enhanced speed limit is 90 mph.

 

Something I have often wondered about when those new high speed HS2 trains reach Lichfield and are then confined to the non-tilt speed limit all the way to Glasgow.

 

It also occurs to me that those nice shiny new trains will serve places like Stafford, Crewe, Stoke, Altrincham and Stockport but what happens when the second phase of HS2 opens through to Manchester, will they have those trains taken off them and have they been told.

[D854_Tiger]

XC may not serve Liverpool, but EMT does with its cross country route through Sheffield to Ely and Norwich. I have never understood why it is not part of the XC network.

Jonathan

 

Back in the day, Birmingham lost its very useful and well used bi-hourly direct service to Norwich, when all Norwich services switched to the North West instead, and the reason given was that sending alternate trains to Stansted and Norwich and alternating the other way between the North West and the Midlands was causing problems with the reliability of the service.

 

This news was not well received in the Midlands, attracting much negative local press at the time.

 

It is therefore most frustrating to hear now that the operators would prefer to split this service at Nottingham, for the reason that it's not meeting the needs of the imbalanced passenger loadings over the different parts of the journey, which just seems to be another way of saying few people use it all the way.

 

Birmingham has a long history of links between it and East Anglia, particularly Yarmouth, and though not what it was I do wonder can we have our direct trains back seeing as no one is using the alternative.

[D854_Tiger]

P.S my big idea would be to hand Norwich - Nottingham over to XC and run Cardiff - Norwich through services (via Birmingham and Nottingham), EM retaining Nottingham - Liverpool, Birmingham - Leicester - Peterborough - Stansted continuing as at present operated by whoever is deemed appropriate.

 

Might need some additional class 170s though although refurbished class 158s would be no hardship on either route.

[Edwin_m]

It also occurs to me that those nice shiny new trains will serve places like Stafford, Crewe, Stoke, Altrincham and Stockport but what happens when the second phase of HS2 opens through to Manchester, will they have those trains taken off them and have they been told.

Pretty sure Altrincham has never been offered a HS service even in anyone's wildest dreams.  But the published service patterns for Phase 2B do include serving all the others except Stockport. 

[D854_Tiger]

Pretty sure Altrincham has never been offered a HS service even in anyone's wildest dreams.  But the published service patterns for Phase 2B do include serving all the others except Stockport. 

 

So can we presume the current hourly Manchester - Stockport - Altrincham - Crewe - (non stop to Euston) will never use HS2, once phase 1 of HS2 opens.

 

I was under the impression all WCML expresses, not stopping south thereof, would turn right onto the new railway at Lichfield, following the opening of phase 1, and a new fleet of trains are to be provided in order to do so.

[Zomboid]

So can we presume the current hourly Manchester - Stockport - Altrincham - Crewe - (non stop to Euston) will never use HS2, once phase 1 of HS2 opens.

There's no such train. The Manchester/ London via Crewe train calls at Wilmslow and runs via Cheadle Hulme. Presume that's what you're thinking of? Edited November 6, 2017 by Zomboid

[D854_Tiger]

There's no such train. The Manchester/ London via Crewe train calls at Wilmslow and runs via Cheadle Hulme. Presume that's what you're thinking of?

 

Oh, of course, forgive me, I'm not local, I tend to get the place names mixed up.

 

I just remember that rather upmarket neck of the woods as being synonymous with overpaid, over sexed, professional footballers. I believe Wilmslow is where the entire Manchester United team can occasionally be found boarding a London train, somehow I could never imagine them getting on a tram at Old Trafford.

[woodenhead]

I believe Wilmslow is where the entire Manchester United team can occasionally be found boarding a London train, somehow I could never imagine them getting on a tram at Old Trafford.

 That's because they use Pomona which is nearest Old Trafford stadium, you're thinking of the cricket team 

[D854_Tiger]

 That's because they use Pomona which is nearest Old Trafford stadium, you're thinking of the cricket team 

 

Ah that's why I've not noticed 25 of them queuing up for their Off-Peak All Day Travelcards.

[Edwin_m]

I was under the impression all WCML expresses, not stopping south thereof, would turn right onto the new railway at Lichfield, following the opening of phase 1, and a new fleet of trains are to be provided in order to do so.

That's likely to be the case.  At Phase 1 they will run via Crewe (but not stop), but at Phase 2 the three per hour London-Manchester service will be on HS2 throughout.  There will be a station near Manchester airport where probably two of them will call.  This is a park-and-ride for south Manchester in place of Stockport as well as hopefully having some Metrolink connections.  However all HS2 (and WCML post-HS2) service patterns are very provisional and part of the role of the partnership franchise is probably to firm them up. 

[Edwin_m]

 That's because they use Pomona which is nearest Old Trafford stadium, you're thinking of the cricket team 

The Metrolink Trafford extension, now under construction, will provide a tramstop near the United ground.  Anyone who's been to Pomona probably wonders why anyone would wish to do so a second time. 

[D854_Tiger]

That's likely to be the case.  At Phase 1 they will run via Crewe (but not stop), but at Phase 2 the three per hour London-Manchester service will be on HS2 throughout.  There will be a station near Manchester airport where probably two of them will call.  This is a park-and-ride for south Manchester in place of Stockport as well as hopefully having some Metrolink connections.  However all HS2 (and WCML post-HS2) service patterns are very provisional and part of the role of the partnership franchise is probably to firm them up. 

 

I reckon that because HS2 will not serve Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe or Stoke something like two Pendolinos per hour will still need to serve the West Midlands, two for Manchester, one for Scotland and one Voyager (or equivalent) for Chester, North Wales a total saving of only four paths on the existing WCML.

 

Then some of those paths will be taken up by new services in the meantime that may, or may not, switch to the new line.

 

I guess HS2 is more about the expected traffic growth than relieving the existing main line, at least let's hope so.

[RfDforever]

The point I was trying to make about tilting was in relation to 125 mph running, I believe there are plenty of stretches currently speed limited at 110 mph, for non-tilting trains, that could be raised for the non-tilt case and the only reason they haven't been is that no one has asked.

 

 

Yes, that's a fair point - and to an extent it was the basis of my earlier question asking why non-tilting trains were restricted to 110. The whole WCML speed/tilting arrangements never seem to have been laid down in any enthusiast publication AFAIK. For instance. my journey on Saturday was a return one, and train back was being checked by the train in front and running at about 100-110 so I didn't take much notice thinking tilt only worked at speeds over 110. If, as you say, tilt works at speeds as low as 75 (and I don't doubt that) there seems to be a logical flaw in that this IS a speed at which non-tilting trains run without any apparent discomfort. And there's another sophistry - between Wolverhampton and Stafford non tilting 221s can do 125 but tilting ones are limited to 110.

The dis-benefit, in my opinion, of tilting trains is the reduced internal width - Voyager c.f. Meridian which makes the former seem more cramped.

In the words of Johnny Nash, "The more I find out, the less I know"..

[Edwin_m]

Yes, that's a fair point - and to an extent it was the basis of my earlier question asking why non-tilting trains were restricted to 110. The whole WCML speed/tilting arrangements never seem to have been laid down in any enthusiast publication AFAIK. For instance. my journey on Saturday was a return one, and train back was being checked by the train in front and running at about 100-110 so I didn't take much notice thinking tilt only worked at speeds over 110. If, as you say, tilt works at speeds as low as 75 (and I don't doubt that) there seems to be a logical flaw in that this IS a speed at which non-tilting trains run without any apparent discomfort. And there's another sophistry - between Wolverhampton and Stafford non tilting 221s can do 125 but tilting ones are limited to 110.

The dis-benefit, in my opinion, of tilting trains is the reduced internal width - Voyager c.f. Meridian which makes the former seem more cramped.

In the words of Johnny Nash, "The more I find out, the less I know"..

In theory, a tilting train can go round any curve at a higher speed than a non-tilting train, though the benefit diminishes on really tight curves and some curves are restricted for reasons other than curvature so there is no benefit in tilting.  It just so happens on the WCML that before tilting its trains ran no faster than 110mph and only the tilting trains go faster so nobody has needed to define any speed limits over 110 for non-tilting trains. 

 

You can download the Sectional Appendixes from the Network Rail website which show the permitted speeds on the entire network, including the differential speeds for tilting trains. 

 

Meridians and Voyagers have just the same internal width - the bodyshell of all three classes is small enough to tilt although only the 221s actually do so.  The relative spaciousness of the Meridian is all down to better internal design.