RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 19, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, roythebus said: I tried some of the Kean products a few years back and wasn't over-impressed by them as they didn't have the centering return spring. Maybe they work ok with the Kean dummy buckeye, but didn't work that well with Kadees. But I might give them another try with the Roco/Hornby KKs. I overcame the lack of self-centering on my first Keen-fitted Bachmann Bulleids by attaching a piece of plastic card to the bogies (after removal of the coupler and the central bit of the end transom). I then made a slot in the new piece, gradually widening it until it became a smooth sliding fit over the linkage as it turned. The "steering" action thus achieved brought adjacent Kadees into line sufficiently well to ensure reliable coupling up. For me, this was only necessary on the outer ends of sets as mine stay semi-permanently coupled. The intermediate couplers were (then) the manual 2-pin jobs that came with the CCUs. These have since been replaced with Roco heads which make forming up sets in the fiddle yard much easier. I just centre them up by eye before pushing the coaches together. My more recent conversions, where I required a centering action, used Gutzold # 01170 CCUs. Those ceased to be available when Gutzold closed down and I nowadays employ the almost identical units from Symoba. Despite being smaller than the Keen units, these are not always easier to accommodate. John Edited July 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2019 Just tried inverting the Roco coupling on a couple of Hornby Maunsell 3-sets. They look much better of course, but I've had a couple of issues. The coaches sometimes now do not couple together easily as the couplings are not engaging properly. More seriously though, on one set two of the coaches keep uncoupling themselves when running over turnouts in the station throat. I can't see any problem with the couplings and the uncoupling loops have been removed. Reverting to the original fitting and the problem goes away. Any ideas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Limpley Stoker Posted July 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2019 I find coupling with the Roco close couplings on all Hornby coaches needs care. I couple them on straight track and bring the two coaches smartly together to get full engagement of the couplings. I haven’t had any ‘slip coaches’ so far! I have left the uncoupling loops on as they can be useful to uncouple the coaches using a flat ‘paddle’ from above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 What number are the Roco couplings, and who supplies them these days? I\ve just got some Hornby short Bullieds and using the Hornby close-couplers the coaches are too far apart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 (edited) Roco Kurzkupplung 40270 (4 pack), 40271 (50 pack). The latter far more economical per coupler. I got my most recent pack by walking into a model shop in Koln, but that's not very helpful. I imagine that Lippe will be a good bet. Friendly, efficient, good English. https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt9OOpZGH5AIVh0PTCh1KAAglEAAYASAAEgIaV_D_BwE Edited August 16, 2019 by 34theletterbetweenB&D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted August 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2019 Or Gaugemaster: http://www.gaugemaster.com/search_results.asp 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Thanks, Fat Controller has kindly offered to send me a few, but no doubt I'll have to buy a big bag of them eventually! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 17, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2019 2 hours ago, roythebus said: Thanks, Fat Controller has kindly offered to send me a few, but no doubt I'll have to buy a big bag of them eventually! There is a pack of four available under ref: 40270. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 17, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2019 On 20/07/2019 at 12:08, RFS said: Just tried inverting the Roco coupling on a couple of Hornby Maunsell 3-sets. They look much better of course, but I've had a couple of issues. The coaches sometimes now do not couple together easily as the couplings are not engaging properly. More seriously though, on one set two of the coaches keep uncoupling themselves when running over turnouts in the station throat. I can't see any problem with the couplings and the uncoupling loops have been removed. Reverting to the original fitting and the problem goes away. Any ideas? A lot of my Maunsells came with end-boards fitted to the corridors and these need to be removed to give satisfactory operation of Roco couplers. I take them all off except the ones on van ends in sets that aren't used in multiple. Even one left on will take up the tiny amount of slack that is necessary for easy coupling-up. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted August 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: A lot of my Maunsells came with end-boards fitted to the corridors and these need to be removed to give satisfactory operation of Roco couplers. I take them all off except the ones on van ends in sets that aren't used in multiple. Even one left on will take up the tiny amount of slack that is necessary for easy coupling-up. John This occurred with a set where the end-boards had been removed. No problems with the set when the couplings are the right way up, only when I inverted them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 17, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, RFS said: This occurred with a set where the end-boards had been removed. No problems with the set when the couplings are the right way up, only when I inverted them. Interesting, there's no logical reason why they should behave differently whichever way up they are used unless, when inverted, they catch on something on the bottom of the coach. I had to trim the brake pipes on my Airfix LMS non-corridors (Keen CCUs) because of that. None of my Maunsells have (yet) misbehaved as you describe, but I'll keep an eye on them. John Edited August 17, 2019 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 Has anyone yet devised a way of self-centring the Keen CCU? I found them to be very problematical on some early stock I put them on, especially when used with Kadees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted August 17, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, roythebus said: Has anyone yet devised a way of self-centring the Keen CCU? I found them to be very problematical on some early stock I put them on, especially when used with Kadees. A bit off topic for this thread I would suggest, perhaps better to start a separate thread for this issue as it may attract more response if you have Keen CCU in the title? Edited August 17, 2019 by RFS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 21, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2019 On 17/08/2019 at 10:05, roythebus said: Has anyone yet devised a way of self-centring the Keen CCU? I found them to be very problematical on some early stock I put them on, especially when used with Kadees. Roger Keen's leaflets used to illustrate a method employing a couple of phosphor bronze strips, but I've never tried it. Most of what has been in his instructional leaflets over the years can now be found on the website. My preferred practice is to adapt the bogie to steer the CCU as outlined a few posts back (July 19). Airfix/Dapol bogies almost look like they are designed for it; just remove the clip, snip off the pin and progressively file out a slot in the flat bit until the bogie will turn the CCU and vice versa without snagging. It involves a fair amount of "file a bit, offer it up, file a bit more" but with care you can get smooth operation with no more than +/-1mm of side-play, which is tight enough for Kadees to do their stuff. Whatever bogie is involved try to retain as much of it as possible, taking out the whole end leaves you nowhere to build from. I don't bother on those CCUs that are "inside" sets and won't be shunted individually - they get Roco heads, and lining those up by eye before pushing the coaches together in the fiddle yard does the trick. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 What is the standard height for Roco couplers? I've just got a batch of Kean CCUs from Peters Parts, so now have some Airfix/Dapol Mk2 and Jouef Mk3s to fit! I found the CCU didn't work well on the Airfix B set or Siphon G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Follow the NEM 362 drawing, if you want a standard set up. http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/couplings.htm It bears repeating that the coupler height may be standardised at 'whatever best suits' for your own layout stock. Inverting the Roco pattern coupler would place the coupler head where it was never intended to be on HO vehicles for which the NEM 362 dimensions were devised (it might well foul on some HO stock). But this typically works very neatly on 4mm vehicles by placing the coupler slightly higher and thus less obtrusively on view. I have no idea what the Keen system proposes as a standard coupler height, or whether it is for the DIY user to decide? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 thanks for the info sheet. I'd rather model and convert to a set standard, it makes changing couplers easy if i decide to change KKs for Kadee. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 27, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) On 23/08/2019 at 23:53, roythebus said: What is the standard height for Roco couplers? I've just got a batch of Kean CCUs from Peters Parts, so now have some Airfix/Dapol Mk2 and Jouef Mk3s to fit! I found the CCU didn't work well on the Airfix B set or Siphon G. I haven't done one yet but the Airfix B-set looks a bit of a nightmare due to the very restricted space available. There is an instructional on the Keen Systems website which clearly illustrates that they need substantial modification to make them fit and function. The Siphon isn't so bad, though it does need quite a lot to be filed off the back edge of the CCU to get it far enough back from the buffer faces. If you replace the plastic buffers with scale length 2' GWR coach buffer castings, it gets a bit easier. My Siphons run as "loose stock" so have Kadees fitted into the links, as on the outer ends of sets, so they can be shunted independently. Everything made by Keen Systems is designed to comply fully to the NEM standard for height and reach. For setting up, Symoba do a handy and inexpensive gauge for checking the alignment of NEM pockets. It clips on to OO track and does the same job for NEM mounts as the Kadee ones do for their couplers, I obtain my Symoba CCUs (which I use when I require firm self-centreing) and accessories from DCC Supplies, and haven't (so far) come across any other UK stockists. John Edited August 27, 2019 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted August 27, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2019 With Bachmann MK1s the Hornby close couplers are perfect length - except for the TPOs and sleepers which have different close coupling mechanisms. The Roco 40270s are perfect for the latter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 I've just had time to look at the underneath of a Dapol/Airfix Mk2. I had to cut a square hole in the end of the floor to get the CCU to the right height. On the Replica Railways BR suburban coach, it fitted under the floor with a bit of filing. However on those I removed the original buffers and fitted ABS cast extended buffers which are the right type for that stock. I use a bit of double sided sticky tape to mount the CCU temporarily while adjustments are made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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