Chassis rot in Grange

[swiftbeam]

"Please don't waste my time"

Sorry, I didn't realise I forced you to read my post?

 

"What you might want to do in future is to 'pension off' some of your older models onto the second hand market."

"it only matter what the Law considers to be reasonable and the answer is 6 years!"

 

Sorry, I stand corrected, I'll sell them off at 6 years, not 2. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

I find it amazing that nobody has even once commented on the fact I am solving my little problem by fixing the chassis and having it cast in brass. Surely it is ME that is offering the best advice to solve the problem? Brass will outlast Mazak by far!

 

Why has nobody thought to offer comment on my solution?

 

And in fairness, almost of this thread has been members arguing about the Chinese way of life and the way they do business!

 

 

This thread NEEDS to be shut down, it's going nowhere fast!

 

I give up, I'll do my thing, you do you yours!

Edited November 8, 2017 by swiftbeam

[locoholic]

"Please don't waste my time"

Sorry, I didn't realise I forced you to read my post?

 

"What you might want to do in future is to 'pension off' some of your older models onto the second hand market."

"it only matter what the Law considers to be reasonable and the answer is 6 years!"

 

Sorry, I stand corrected, I'll sell them off at 6 years, not 2. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

I find it amazing that nobody has even once commented on the fact I am solving my little problem by fixing the chassis and having it cast in brass. Surely it is ME that is offering the best advice to solve the problem? Brass will outlast Mazak by far!

 

Why has nobody thought to offer comment on my solution?

 

 

This thread NEEDS to be shut down, it's going nowhere fast!

 

I give up, I'll do my thing, you do you yours!

I agree that the reaction of some people to this problem is weirdly fatalistic.

 

I am certainly interested to see if your new chassis casting can be mated with the Hornby components to make a free-running chassis, and how the cost compares to making a Comet chassis.

[locoholic]

You might want to consider the relevant bit of law here, which is the 2015 Consumer Rights Act:-

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

 

As with the Sale of Goods act which it replaced, physical goods such as model locomotives must be of Satisfactory Quality, Fit for Purpose and As Described.

 

Your rights are against the Retailer, NOT the Manufacturer.

 

You are legally entitled to return the product within 30 days and expect a full refund.

 

After 30 days you can require the retailer to repair or replace the item, but you no longer have a right to a refund.

 

However, we are talking about goods that have started to deteriorate at 10 years. So what does the law say in that case?

 

"If a fault develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time of delivery. In practise this may require some form of expert opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range. You have six years to take a claim to the small claims court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland......"

 

In short, it seems that the Consumer has no rights so long as the product showed no defect within 6 years of purchase.

 

Given that Hornby have no legal obligation to provide spare chassis and it is also against their commercial interests to do so, I suggest you don't hold you breath!

 

Andy.

Since the mazak rot is caused by lead contamination of the alloy used to make the casting, it would be very easy to show that the fault was present at the time of delivery. Your whole argument therefore has no merit.

[woodenhead]

This thread NEEDS to be shut down, it's going nowhere fast!

 

Just report your post to the Mods and they will lock the thread.

 

There is probably some over reaction on all sides in this, so before it does explode locking it would seem the most appropriate course.

[Osgood]

Before you get the thread locked, I must thank you for starting it.  If you had not, I would possibly never have known about the issue.

 

Whilst it does not affect me directly as I have no Hornby (or any 4mm for that matter), I do have a few recent 7mm RTR creations which seem to have a mazak-type material in their make-up.  So who knows what may happen in years to come.....

 

I'm sure there are more than a few watchers interested in how you progress your solution to the problem (I thought your idea of selling stock on after a couple of years was an ingenious preventative cure - but don't forget to write 'sold as seen'!!).

[swiftbeam]

Thank you :-)

 

If the Mod's will allow, I'll leave it open as I'm sure some people maybe interested in how my new cast brass chassis turns out?

 

If the shrinkage is within workable tolerance, then I've cracked it and my problem will be no more!

 

My caster is a very busy man, and I've been advised 2 weeks (or more) but I maybe able to twist his arm ;-)

 

He is a fantastic craftsman and I've used him for a good few years, if anybody can cast this chassis with minimal shrinkage, it's him.

 

I'll keep my keyboard shut on this matter from now on until the casting is here, then I can come back to the debate with 'facts' in hand, literally!

 

Thanks.

:-)

[phil-b259]

Since the mazak rot is caused by lead contamination of the alloy used to make the casting, it would be very easy to show that the fault was present at the time of delivery. Your whole argument therefore has no merit.

I take it that you will be commission an expert report to prove this then as per the sale of goods act quoted earlier. The opnions of members of an internet fourm count for nothing in legal terms and will not asist in seeking legal redress should that be the route anyone wishes to go down

This cuts to the heart of the case - quite frankly it doesn't matter what your (or anyome elses) views on the matter are, Hornby merely have to comply with the sales of goods act - if you don't like said act then start complaining to the people with the power to change it - namely your MP and the political establishment (most of who am won't give a rats arse about the longevity of toy trains).

 

Finally nobody is forcing anyone to buy Hornby products - you are perfectly at liberty to conduct a personal boycott of their products if you wish. That will however rather limit your modelling potential though as duplication is unecomimic in the model railway market.

Edited November 8, 2017 by phil-b259

[meil]

I shouted because your all arguing over something way off topic!

 

This is about Zink Rot, NOT the Chinese and their way of life!

 

NO, I will not get my soldering iron out to replace something that should have never happened in this day and age. Just because Zink Rot happened pre war, doesn't mean it's acceptable in 2006 or today! The chassis is being recast in brass and I'll not buy anymore Hornby, it really is that simple.

 

If Hornby can't stand by their products, nor will I.

I don't have an all - least I don't think I do. And why does my all (assuming I have one) make you shout. You're not making sense.

[phil-b259]

Thank you :-)

 

If the Mod's will allow, I'll leave it open as I'm sure some people maybe interested in how my new cast brass chassis turns out?

 

If the shrinkage is within workable tolerance, then I've cracked it and my problem will be no more!

 

My caster is a very busy man, and I've been advised 2 weeks (or more) but I maybe able to twist his arm ;-)

 

He is a fantastic craftsman and I've used him for a good few years, if anybody can cast this chassis with minimal shrinkage, it's him.

 

I'll keep my keyboard shut on this matter from now on until the casting is here, then I can come back to the debate with 'facts' in hand, literally!

 

Thanks.

:-)

 

I agree that many would be interested in how the process turns out, but your initial post have somewhat soured the atmosphere. Might I suggest a new 'on my workbench type thread' focused solely on your efforts at producing a new chassis and getting the loco running again would be a good idea as it would provide a 'clean break' from all the  heated posts regarding Hornby and allows us to focus on actual modelling.

[locoholic]

I take it that you will be commission an expert report to prove this then as per the sale of goods act quoted earlier. The opnions of members of an internet fourm count for nothing in legal terms and will not asist in seeking legal redress should that be the route anyone wishes to go down

 

This cuts to the heart of the case - quite frankly it doesn't matter what your (or anyome elses) views on the matter are, Hornby merely have to comply with the sales of goods act - if you don't like said act then start complaining to the people with the power to change it - namely your MP and the political establishment (most of who am won't give a rats arse about the longevity of toy trains).

Finally nobody is forcing anyone to buy Hornby products - you are perfectly at liberty to conduct a personal boycott of their products if you wish. That will however rather limit your modelling potential though as duplication is unecomimic in the model railway market.

Maybe I will get an expert witness, because I assume that even a barrack-room lawyer like you would concede that the problem models had the contaminated mazak at the time they were first sold, so the problem is entirely due to some Hornby models being manufactured using sub-standard materials?

 

Or maybe I will start a publicity campaign to bring people's attention to the problem, so that Hornby ups their game by testing the castings so they can offer some kind of guarantee against mazak rot, and offering a decent spares service?

 

Last week I bought a Hornby Sir William Stanier and an H class. I now look at them and wonder how long they will last, and that puts me off buying more Hornby locos. I think that shows that selling models which may contain sub-standard materials isn't a good, sustainable business practice. Remember the Lancia Beta?

Edited November 9, 2017 by locoholic

[woodenhead]

I don't think Mazak rotted Hornby locos are a danger to the public and in terms of cost there is no comparison.

 

I think you will find there are more Hornby locomotives out there not affected by this than there are who have been affected.

 

Hornby have also in the past made amends where appropriate, there is not some denial across all the modelling companies as Bachmann and Heljan models have also suffered Mazak related incidents so will you also stop using those companies as well?

[RJS1977]

I only need one PS4, I need multiple locomotives of same class.

 

That said Sony usually have good aftersales.

 

No, you do not *need* either - you will not die if you have to do without!

[Andy W]

Maybe I will get an expert witness, because I assume that even a barrack-room lawyer like you would concede that the problem models had the contaminated mazak at the time they were first sold, so the problem is entirely due to some Hornby models being manufactured using sub-standard materials?

 

Or maybe I will start a publicity campaign to bring people's attention to the problem, so that Hornby ups their game by testing the castings so they can offer some kind of guarantee against mazak rot, and offering a decent spares service?

 

Last week I bought a Hornby Sir William Stanier and an H class. I now look at them and wonder how long they will last, and that puts me off buying more Hornby locos. I think that shows that selling models which may contain sub-standard materials is a good, sustainable business practice. Remember the Lancia Beta?

The points you seem to be missing are that Hornby don't manufacture locomotives themselves, in fact none of the "manufacturers" of UK outline locos do, and that the fault is in no way apparent until several years after manufacture. Not all the locomotives in a given production run ever suffer from the problem either, so random testing of the metal in manufactured chassis is in no way guaranteed to show whether the batch is safe or not.

Bachmann/Graham Farish locomotives are at least made by another company in the same group, and after a small but high-profile number of issues affecting their UK, US and Chinese ranges over 15 years ago they seem to have a grip on controlling the purity of the alloy used to make the chassis blocks.

If you read the thread on Mazak Rot in the Modelling Questions, Hints and Tips section of Rmweb, you'll see that all the currently available brands of 4mm/2mm mass-produced UK-outline ready-to-run locomotives have suffered from mazak rot on some of their production at some time or other except Dapol (and SLW,

Oxford and DJM, but given the timescale over which the fault develops the jury would have to be still out on these).

 

All of the reported incidents for Hornby affect models produced in the Sanda Kan factory, which is now closed down. You can tell which these are because Hornby fix a label onto the outside of their boxes with a production centre code - SK is Sanda Kan. The last locos arrived from Sanda Kan in 2014, and these were just completing long-overdue orders. Sir William Stanier and the H class are both brand new 2017 production models. They aren't made in the same place as the offending Granges, and neither are current-production Granges. We did have a tracking thread on which Hornby locos were made in which factory, there seem to be around 5 different plants producing locos for them.

 

I make no comment on product liability - I have no legal qualifications and I'm not a Trading Standards Officer.

[locoholic]

I don't think Mazak rotted Hornby locos are a danger to the public and in terms of cost there is no comparison.

 

I think you will find there are more Hornby locomotives out there not affected by this than there are who have been affected.

 

Hornby have also in the past made amends where appropriate, there is not some denial across all the modelling companies as Bachmann and Heljan models have also suffered Mazak related incidents so will you also stop using those companies as well?

Has ANYONE suggested that defective model trains are a danger to the public, or that the mazak problem affects the majority of Hornby locos?

 

I was lucky enough to get a replacement chassis for my defective Class 31 from Hornby. The incidence of mazak problems with Bachmann and Heljan locos seems to be less frequent, indicating that their materials come from more reliable sources.

 

It is now clear that when buying a Hornby loco you take a small but significant gamble that the chassis won't fall to bits within a decade or so. I will bear that in mind the next time I consider purchasing their increasingly expensive products.

[Chamby]

OK here goes with my first post on this topic which is clearly an emotive subject...

 

Many other threads on this forum refer to how manufacturer behaviour has evolved to have much more emphasis on producing a batch size that sells quickly and maximises their ROI within a short timeframe. Unlike the ‘good old days’ when products would be around for a long time and spares were stocked as well. In effect, most of today’s production is undertaken with a ‘limited edition’ mindset.

 

The current emphasis on ‘just in time’ logistics also means that having spares that are likely to sell very slowly over a protracted period of time does not make economic sense.

 

However, I do believe that modern technology is about to come to the rescue of victims of Mazak Rot or any other long term issues encountered with our model hardware. The M.O.D. Is now producing its own supplies of spare parts for aircraft out in the field of operations, and uses 3D printing technology to produce replacement parts on site, to order and with a short turnaround time. If it can work for our front line fighter jets, then assuming that the start-up costs can be overcome then it can work for our hobby too. I can well imagine an enterprising individual or small company setting up a business that can scan a part and then 3D print you a replacement for next day delivery.

 

Imagine something like Peters Spares with no physical stock but a library of virtual parts that can be produced on demand. Sadly not yet available for the O.P. but maybe not that far away now.

 

Phil

[The Bigbee Line]

Avoiding the 'he said, she said' posts etc how about this as a possible positive way forwards.....

 

Ask nicely if Hornby could release the drawing of the chassis blocks that have had the problem historically and are no longer produced by Hornby.  Then get quotes to make these by some other process as aftermarket products allowing anyone the chance to replace items damaged for whatever reason.

 

I will email Hornby today and ask the question.....

[Andy W]

It is now clear that when buying a Hornby loco you take a small but significant gamble that the chassis won't fall to bits within a decade or so. I will bear that in mind the next time I consider purchasing their increasingly expensive products.

Lets correct that. It is now clear that when buying a second hand Hornby loco manufactured in the Sanda Kan plant you take a small but significant gamble ... etc.

There's no evidence that the subcontractors Hornby use now have similar quality control issues, and you can't buy new Sanda Kan-built locos because the factory has closed down. This whole thread started over a second-hand chassis...

 

Now you might well say that there's no evidence that the current subcontractors' production won't display similar issues in 10 years time, and that's true. But in that case you won't be buying from anyone who started up less than 10 years ago either (sorry, Oxford, DJM, SLW) or from Heljan who were having the same problem as recently as 2014 - we don't actually know the problem is fixed because it won't show up for ages

Edited November 9, 2017 by Andy W

[The Bigbee Line]

Lets correct that. It is now clear that when buying a second hand Hornby loco manufactured in the Sanda Kan plant you take a small but significant gamble ... etc.

There's no evidence that the subcontractors Hornby use now have similar quality control issues, and you can't buy new Sanda Kan-built locos because the factory has closed down. This whole thread started over a second-hand chassis...

 

Now you might well say that there's no evidence that the current subcontractors' production won't display similar issues in 10 years time, and that's true. But in that case you won't be buying from anyone who started up less than 10 years ago either (sorry, Oxford, DJM, SLW) or from Heljan who were having the same problem as recently as 2014 - we don't actually know the problem is fixed because it won't show up for ages

Andy,

 

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.

 

I might have missed it, but is there a list of likely effected models? I apologise it already provided.

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

[Andy W]

Andy,

 

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.

 

I might have missed it, but is there a list of likely effected models? I apologise it already provided.

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123769-zinc-pest-mazak-rot-the-affected-models-list/

It's a work-in-progress, and the list of models is updated as necessary.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...how about this as a possible positive way forwards.....

 

Ask nicely if Hornby could release the drawing of the chassis blocks that have had the problem historically and are no longer produced by Hornby.  Then get quotes to make these by some other process as aftermarket products allowing anyone the chance to replace items damaged for whatever reason...

 While the proposal is a good one, I don't think there's anything significant with the problem that is no longer in production?

 

...I'll leave it open as I'm sure some people maybe interested in how my new cast brass chassis turns out?

 

If the shrinkage is within workable tolerance, then I've cracked it and my problem will be no more!

 Definitely interested to hear about your cast brass solution. A factor to keep in mind is that if the failure is by 'mazak rot' / 'zinc pest' then the mechanism of this failure is expansion of the casting as the crystalline structure of the alloy changes. You might want to measure over the coupled wheelbase of the reassembled chassis block, and see if it has expanded significantly compared to the side rods. In the best of all possible worlds the expansion of the original and shrinkage of the replacement will cancel...

[phil-b259]

Maybe I will get an expert witness, because I assume that even a barrack-room lawyer like you would concede that the problem models had the contaminated mazak at the time they were first sold, so the problem is entirely due to some Hornby models being manufactured using sub-standard materials?

 

Or maybe I will start a publicity campaign to bring people's attention to the problem, so that Hornby ups their game by testing the castings so they can offer some kind of guarantee against mazak rot, and offering a decent spares service?

 

Last week I bought a Hornby Sir William Stanier and an H class. I now look at them and wonder how long they will last, and that puts me off buying more Hornby locos. I think that shows that selling models which may contain sub-standard materials is a good, sustainable business practice. Remember the Lancia Beta?

 

(1) I am not the person you have to convince (I don't doubt that you are correct in the assessment that it is Mazzak rot) but if the decision had to be made in the small claims court then the mere opinion of a person with no metrological training counts for nothing in the eyes of a sufficiently trained up legal counsel. Look at how difficult it was to convince a manufacturer of tumble dryers their machines were a fire risk despite expert evidence from the fire service!

 

(2) Generally companies don't like adverse publicity so yes, a campaign highlighting the issue could be carried out. However for such a campaign to work it needs to be well supported - and quite frankly I simply don';t see that happening in the model railway trade today any more than it happened with Hornby Dublo or Dinky toys (which have similarly been affected by Mazzak rot in the past). You are welcome to try however......

 

(3) We simply don't know whether the H or the latest Duchess will be affected as Mazzak rot usually takes several years before visual symptoms become apparent. Even if you did conduct some form of testing on a random sample there is always the chance that some may be affected, others not depending on the level of contamination. While you could also test every single item that is expensive and no company that mass produces anything (models or otherwise)  does that these days as in theory proper quality control procedures throughout the supply chain should eliminate problems before they have a chance to happen.

[MJI]

I am watching for any evidence as I have a few models with known issues (Mazak, plastic axles ect).

 

Each would have their own route

 

Bogie Diesel - plastic card block

Steam loco - Comet chassis or similar

 

But last check my Heljan 47 was OK, as even some of my old Mainline stuff (Jubilee)

[royaloak]

You'd have thought the metallurgie specialists would have sorted this problem by now. Clealrly recent models showing this problem are unfit for purpose and have been manufactured with unsuitable metals.

 

Dava

How long should a 'toy' last?

 

That is the question?

 

Edit-

After reading the other posts its 6 years.

I have got a Hornby 50037 bought second hand, I have just checked it and the body was easily removed from the chassis with no signs of 'reshaping' taking place, so fingers crossed its a good one.

Edited November 9, 2017 by royaloak

[locomad]

How long should a 'toy' last?

 

That is the question?

 

.

But they are sold as models and should last many years.

 

It's a shame the fault has been known for decades, it's clearly a case that quantity control has slipped up somewhere, I suspect or hope it's just a few batches, I don't know just how many chassis's are made from one batch.

 

Been a chassis it's harder to repair unlike say a wheel, strangely enough my very "real" first turning job on lathe was to turn down rough brass "O" guage wheels for Hornby "O" loco which wheels had split due to mazak rot. My dad had purchased some blanks from an early swap meet back in the 70's.

 

If enough chassis's are affected no doubt someone will be selling replacements so keep the bits

[APOLLO]

Lots of interesting points in this thread. I like the point about having a "strategic reserve" of locomotives.

 

I have quite a few old Lima diesels, I will now know these as my "strategic reserve" - Lima diesels - NEVER had one fault other than a couple of replacement traction tyres.

 

Brit15