american broad gauge

[sir douglas]

im currently looking through some books on Gutenberg, a website with digital versions of many interesting books like Sir Arthur Heywood's Minimum Gauge Railways, anyway the current one is Railway Construction by William Hemingway Mills in 1910

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50696/50696-h/50696-h.htm

In there a little down from the top is a list of Gauges for each country, the US is listed to have not just 4' 8 1/2" but also 5', 5' 6" and 6' gauges, and it doesnt note 3' which i would have thought was the most used after standard, my point though is that ive never heard of the US using any broad, and would like to hear more about it

[pH]

Here's a general starter, with links to some specific lines and gauges - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_States

Edited November 7, 2017 by pH

[Zomboid]

BART (the San Francisco/ Oakland metro) is broad gauge - 5'6" "Indian gauge". I don't know why they chose that though.

[HSB]

Prior to the Civil War railroads were built to numerous different gauges some close to what is now 'Standard Gauge' and others to broad gauges such as 5' 6". The Western and Atlantic, for example, was 5' while 3' gauge didn't appear until a decade or so after the Civil War. During the Civil War the railroads in the North were brought under government control and were converted to a uniform 4' 8¹/₂" to facilitate the movement of troops and military equipment to where they were needed.

[burgundy]

You might like the thread on Roswell Mill, which is an entry for the cameo competition, in HO scale, to 5' gauge.  Alternatively, try Dave Bright's website on Confederate Railroads at http://www.csa-railroads.com/

In particular, have a look at the maps pages, which document the various different gauges in use at the time of the Civil War.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited November 8, 2017 by burgundy

[BR60103]

A lot of streetcar lines were required to have non-standard gauges to prevent their running freight cars down city streets. Most of these gauges were a few inches off standard, although some were down to 42".

It was also thought that some governments (e.g. Ontario) gave grants conditional on a certain gauge being used.

[Corbs]

I read somewhere that the main reason for Russia having a wider gauge than Europe was due to the influence of American engineers

[sir douglas]

ive never been much into american railways (roads) but this has piqued my interest, thanks for the info chaps

[Andy Hayter]

..................and all this under UK prototype     Might just be better if it could be moved to the continental area.

 

I am led to believe that the original Baden Railway system was built to 5ft gauge after their engineers visited the US and also that both Russia and Spain chose their broad gauge systems based on US systems that had been studied for exactly the reason (post Napoleon) that they did not want to be compatible with a potential neighbouring and enemy state who might just send troops straight to the capital by rail without a break of gauge.

[Talltim]

US RRs were quite late to start interchanging vehicles between companies, even when they were the same gauge. Freight (and passengers) were transloaded at the placed they met.

[pete_mcfarlane]

..................and all this under UK prototype     Might just be better if it could be moved to the continental area.

 

I am led to believe that the original Baden Railway system was built to 5ft gauge after their engineers visited the US and also that both Russia and Spain chose their broad gauge systems based on US systems that had been studied for exactly the reason (post Napoleon) that they did not want to be compatible with a potential neighbouring and enemy state who might just send troops straight to the capital by rail without a break of gauge.

The German experience in Russia in WW2 suggests this approach was correct. 

[The Johnster]

Absolutely; the need to tranship materiel from German into captured Russian rolling stock at the Polish border was a major problem for the German advance into Russia, which eventually stalled because the supply lines had become too long, at the same time as the Russians got their act together and started to fight back, very effectively.  

 

It is a sobering thought in terms of world wide distances that the furthest southeastern advance of the German Army in Russia came within only 600 miles of the furthest northwestern Japanese advance in China.  That particular 600 miles includes some of the highest mountains on Earth, but a standard gauge railway through them might have made a very different post 1943 world history, with the Axis powers finally having a reliable supply of oil and raw materials!

[Trog]

The German experience in Russia in WW2 suggests this approach was correct. 

 

I think the Germans problems with the railways of the USSR were more to do with their low quality than the gauge. Tightening the gauge from 5' to 4' 8 1/2" is a relatively trivial task. All you need is labour and the Germans had captured a huge number of Russian troops.

[autocoach]

BART (the San Francisco/ Oakland metro) is broad gauge - 5'6" "Indian gauge". I don't know why they chose that though.

An apocryphal story.  When BART was proposed in the mid-1960's, It was the announced intention to not build a railway but a whole new mode of transportation. In engineering from scratch, they consulted an advanced engineering professor at the University of California (or was it Cal Poly?) and asked his advice for the most stable economical gauge that would keep a rail vehicle safely on the highly banked sharpest radius curve of the proposed new system in a 200 mile per hour crosswind with the proposed loading gauge. The answer was a 5' 6" gauge. Whether the professor came from India or was familiar with other British colonial engineering practices, I am not aware.

 

To finish the story, when the system was actually built the sharp curve used as the engineering model wound up underground in downtown Oakland safe from any crosswinds.  After BART the US Federal Department issued regulations that no new rail projects would be eligible for federal funding unless built to the US standard 4 foot 8 1/2 inch gauge. BART is still plagued with unnecessary costs because everything to do with the wheel/track engineering must be custom instead of off the shelf. BART car axles or other parts cannot be imported from India due to other federal restrictions on parts having to have US origin. 

 

Another California story. The first California railroad from Sacramento east to Folsom in the Sierra foothills was built to 5' 0" gauge about 1860. This was the "Southern" gauge common in states in the SE part of the country. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by autocoach

[jjb1970]

I think the Germans problems with the railways of the USSR were more to do with their low quality than the gauge. Tightening the gauge from 5' to 4' 8 1/2" is a relatively trivial task. All you need is labour and the Germans had captured a huge number of Russian troops.

In the heady days of 1941 German policy seems to have been to exterminate Soviet pow's in preference to exploiting them economically. One of the great "what ifs" of history is what might have happened if Germany had treated people in the occupied East well and implemented a rational plan rather than using it as a playground for their racial fantasies.

[Talltim]

The BART designers also decided to dispense with coned wheels. I believe that after years of squeeky corners they’ve recently changed to coned

[roythebus]

No point trying to re-invent the wheel.

[johnb]

The street cars in New Orleans use a broader gauge, I think either 5ft 3ins or 5ft 6ins. The difference is very noticeable where the street car tracks run alongside the main railroad along the river frontage.

 

John

[stadman]

Some USA logging lines had 8-10 foot gauge