DCC help needed please...

[Nutford]

I am starting a new layout…when I last started one DCC hadn’t been invented…

 

Now I understand (I think) the basics. But I have no idea which system I should be looking at. In essence, I’m planning a static, circular layout, with a circulation length of c50’, and I want:

*A maximum of about 10 locos.

*Ideally, two linked control positions, one mobile.

* To be able to ‘let trains run’  in 'auto' mode if desired, using a hidden fiddle yard to     automatically switch trains by changing point settings as they enter it; (one in, a different one out).

* Simple block control using standard modules. (The Block Signalling SEC2 seems to do what I want).

*To be able to get selected trains to auto stop at a station.

*To chip some older locos - some of what I need are older models not available DCC ready.

 

Some of this I could achieve without DCC –  but for a start when running in ‘auto’ the locomotives would run at whatever speed they go on the power setting selected and I want each loco to run at the speed I want it to go at. And some of it is only I think possible with DCC. However I’m not bothered about DCC controlling points – push switches are fine; nor about sound, or lights. Nor uncouplers or signals - I have a mechanical means for doing those if I want to.

 

So – maybe a fairly simple system that doesn’t cost the earth? (Yeah I know, dream on...), But simple would be good.....

 

I've read as much as I can/understand, but mostly when people recommend a system it's because it's either the cheapest possible, or does the most things. I want it to be reasonably cheap but doesn't need to be THE cheapest, but only need it to do SOME things, with a relatively small number of locos.

 

At which point I stop, because I haven’t a clue what different makes do. What brands/makes of controllers, and chips, would people suggest? Thanks for any help given.

 

 

[johnb]

All the makes of controllers and chips do essentially the same thing. Some just have more facilities than others. There is no one simple answer. If you go through the posts on here (there are lots) then you will see that everyone has their personal favourites. You really really need to try systems out and see which one suits YOU!

 

I tried several and settled on NCE, others also tried a selection and swear by Digitrax or Lenz or Roco or ESU or Zimo or others. It's very much a personal choice.

 

Essentially though you cannot usually mix controller systems, but almost any chip will work with any control system.

 

As someone posted here a while back "ask 10 people and you will get 11 answers!"

 

There are often DCC suppliers offering a variety of systems at the bigger shows where you can test systems. Otherwise there are clubs with DCC systems where you can see the systems working on a layout, members within a club may well have their own different systems. In my club one layout uses the Z21, I use NCE and so on, however altough the controllers can't be mixed the locos will run on either system.

 

I cannot stress too much that you need to try various systems yourself. For example I like the NCE handsets, others certainly do not!

 

John

[Phil S]

Some aspects of what you plan are more easily accomplished in analogue, whilst others benefit from dcc, and the freedoms it can give you.

I don't know what controllers you have looked at - but would suggest trying the downloadable simulator of the Roco/Fleischmann Multimaus (www.roco.cc) - as giving you, free, and idea of what a basic handheld dcc controller can offer:  Loco control, Function Control and Accessory Control with a simple and clear graphic display (including showing how a point is set) - the basic model is cabled, but the latest is about 80-90GBP for the WirelessLAN-based version usable with the Z21 (this also gives route selection and more)  Then there are the Console-Style Controllers - which require you to operate from one place (although additional cordelss remotes can usually be added - and these might now be a smartphone or tablet. 

 

If you are not planning on dcc-controlling your points and signals, then you are probably planning on most operations being from a single (console) position? 

 

The Consoles may include graphic displays for your trackwork (as do the smart phones and tablets) - alternatively a link to a computer can give a 'glass screen' track display [large screen displays are now cheap, lightweight, and energy efficient]... which can start economically (just showing  points and signals), or by adding lots of detectors / feedback modules, [and cost!!]  then the system (computer) can show where trains are and track them as they move... and this is the prerequisite  for automation in dcc by sequence or timetable ... along with giving the software the means to control the points and signals !! - 

[Large screens can also be ued to show the pictures from a video camera / webcam covering part of the layout which are hard to see]

 

In analogue - a staging/fiddle/storage yard can be acieved relatively easily, as 'the sytem' does not care which loco is where - it simply responds to track detectors to set the points and applies or cut the track power ( Heathcote modules include ramped speeds from start or to stop )  

 

It WOULD be possible to use the analogue idea - in sequence/rotation mode OR randomly but with dcc-control by simply using the ability to cut / apply power to the track sections in the yard - as long as sudden stops do not cause problems ['stay-alive' might help with gentle stopping??] .  Programmed-in acceleration inertia would mean the newly-powered train accelerated smoothly to exit the yard. ....

In this case, with say 6 tracks - the locos are simply left at whatever speed they were running as they enter, and on re-powering, will regain that speed on exit .....  you do not need a physical controller for every running loco under dcc... BUT the probability is very high that you will want to change its speed - and so recall it to a handset/console/phone/tablet, OR have it as one of many 'virtual throttles' displayed on screen by your chosen controlling software  (eg Rocomotion5.9, or the full versions: Railroad+Co from bronze to gold,  Rocrail, JMRI..... and many more

 

Some food for thought.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Phil S

[chriswright03]

I was about to reply and then saw that JohnB had and pretty much said what I was going to.

There is a very good section on DCC in here which I have little doubt you have had a look at.  The question about which is best is asked so often but in truth that doesn't help because the best for someone else will not also automatically be the best for you.

 

You will also get people who will tell you that there system is the best and others are rubbish.  It really is a case of do the research (which includes asking the question like you have), try and visit a shop or show where you can discuss with people who sell them for a living at length and try different makes. 

 

It looks like whichever you decide on you will need some sort of computer control as well and some systems are better at that than others.  At the moment having just returned to the hobby I am lucky enough to be in the position of having a Bachmann Dynamis Ultima with the Rail Contoller software to try.  I know just saying that will have some saying it is rubbish because of this and because of that but, for me it is working and does what I want very well indeed.  Both Phil Parker and Andy York have done short videos about the system.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuQOXBCos8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nL-VcPkYpM

 

I had in the past used the NCE set up and was happy with it but found it clunky to set routes and it offered no degree of automation.  With the Dynamis you would have the two options for control in as much as the computer would be static and the handset is indeed a wireless unit that you can walk about with.  True it does rely on line of sight for connection to the base set but you can sort that out with very little problem.

 

If you look at the Youtube video with Andy it shows how you can automate running and carry on with running other trains whilst that is going on.  You can control four on screen at any one time but whilst you are doing that you can also control others with the handset.  If you are running several locos at the same time you will need something better than a basic system for the power output.

 

I think the answer is read up as much as you can about the different options available and make a short list of what fills your needs best then come back and discuss options again. 

[Oldddudders]

What I don’t think has been said is that DCC itself does not offer the automation of trains that is sought by the OP. But DCC lends itself to having all sorts of clever goodies bolted on which would do at least some of the things listed. Perhaps it would be wise to research the bolt-on market and find a product that enables them, then identify which DCC systems work well with it?

[Nutford]

WOW! Talk about where to come for information!

 

Thanks so much guys.

 

It will take me a while to absorb all that, but some fantastic ideas and suggestions.

 

Oh regards the 'automation' - I didn't mean anything too fancy when I said 'auto running'. A station stop-start module which affected some trains, not others; some block working - essentially to stop one train hitting another, just like the real thing - and the ability to switch trains in the hidden fiddle yard - which isn't really a problem, just switching the points by reed switches would achieve that on either system I guess and you won't see any jerky stop/start motion.

 

The layout by the way will be of the Masham-Ripon line, with Ripon, Melmerby and Masham stations (West Tanfield has been nuked in this scenario sadly...) which I can get in to full scale - all the station buildings and platforms at least, with some condensing of the Ripon and Melmerby goods areas. Ripon only had 2 platforms, and while Melmerby had 5 it's only 2 I'd be bothered with for stop-start.

 

I'm modelling it as 1930 - when Masham still had passenger trains, and main-line trains such as the Queen of Scots and Liverpool-Newcastle expresses came through Ripon. In fact when there was engineering on the ECML, pretty much everything came through Ripon... so there may be a fair bit of 'engineering work' going on!

 

Any more thoughts very welcome!

 

[chriswright03]

You are quite correct Ian and but then again that is another pointer to research is needed to decide what is best for an individual as there are so any different products out there now.

 

I used the search function when I decided to get back into it all and just trawled through the many and varied threads in the DCC section.  One of the problems I came across is that a lot of the threads are now quite old and the game has moved on in leaps and bounds in recent times.  So, what was really great and the 'thing' to have in 2010 has probably long been surpassed now.

 

In reality as good as a research the forum is and if you Google stuff the forum usually comes up on the top of the list of replies there is no substitute for looking at products in real life and discussing them with those that know them well.  You may find that a dealer pushes one particular product more than another and then a decision needs to be made as to whether that suits you as an individual more than suits them because they favour it for whatever reason.

 

As I said before it isn't an easy journey but certainly interesting.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Some of the things I'm going to mention have already been said by others:

 

Yes it is easier to keep DCC locos running at set maximum when in automated areas buy adding goodies than to do the same in DC.

 

If you operate the points by a means other than DCC then any automation area system involving points may need feedback of the point positions so the system knows where the DCC locomotive is.

 

DCC automation usually involves some way of the knowing what DCC address loco is where - methods include:

 

a) Railcom/Railcom+ - very few Railcom sensor types available in the UK at present. Not all DCC command stations & boosters are Railcom ready.

b) Placing a loco over a position sensor and typing in its DCC address to automation system and then fitting with sensors at all positions that a loco may stop. May be acceptable for home layouts if the trains can be left in situ.

c) Other means of divining DCC address such as RFID - fitting very small radio tags. Can involve typing the DCC address into a database - but you only have to type it the once if you don't change the DCC address. Some RFID systems are still experimental.

 

If you have or could afford to use a PC then many of the above can be done with the appropriate automation software but not all DCC command stations support interfaces that are compatible with all automation software. Just having an serial or USB connector on the command station does not guarantee that it can work with automation software.

 

Train Controller from Railroad and Co seems to be the near the top of automation software (especially the 440 Euro Gold version - supports most command stations that happen to be automation compatible although its unclear what Hornby command stations it supports. The Bronze version was 99 euros the last time I looked but although intended as an evaluation version it may have enough features for your requirements.

 

Much research is needed to select automation hardware and software for DCC.

 

Unless anyone wants to experiment by buying hardware and software and discarding it if not suitable the best route is probably:

 

Research thoroughly, write down what might fit your requirement, select the minimum to buy to experiment with and buy that just that hardware and any software in one go.

Start simply by learning more by running the layout manually (this will give an idea of stopping distances).

Start learning the software in simulation mode if its got one.

Continue simply adding the first automation feature and then another if the first worked.

If you can afford it build a DCC automation test track (roundy roundy) first and try out as many hardware goodies on that.

 

 

Good luck

 

Nick

Edited November 16, 2017 by NIK

[shibushe]

As you can see lots of food for thought. For a start where are you ? maybe someone prepared to let you have a play.

I was in the same position as you, what system to go for.

So, go to shows see what's available and try if you can.

Digitrains/ DCC Supplies have test tracks with most control systems to try.

[johnb]

Another supplier to look at is Coastal DCC (no connection other than a satisfied customer) They do appear at shows and have a variety of systems operating on a test track. The guys are helpful and knowledgeable.

 

Again, where are you located? If you give us a clue then maybe someone could point you in the right direction for advice.

 

John

[Nutford]

Another supplier to look at is Coastal DCC (no connection other than a satisfied customer) They do appear at shows and have a variety of systems operating on a test track. The guys are helpful and knowledgeable.

 

Again, where are you located? If you give us a clue then maybe someone could point you in the right direction for advice.

 

John

By some happy coincidence - well not really lol - I'm just down the road from Masham, ie. about 8 miles west of Ripon. Which, for any southerners, is in a place called 'Yorkshire' ;-)      (I can say that, coming originally from London!)

 

Regarding train identification - I'm not sure how much of that I would need. I don't need the system to show me or even know what train is where, just to stop specific trains at a station and not others - reed switches/magnets?; and alternately swap trains in the fiddle yard if I want to - again reed switches would do that by changing the points. The Block Signalling module I mentioned doesn't apparently care what the train is, just whether or not a train is on the next stretch of line, which is all that matters. I've maybe confused things by implying I wanted to automate the layout - I don't really want to do that to any great extent beyond the above.

 

Stupidly I didn't actually realise you could go along and try these systems - . Last time I went to any rail fair/exhibition they hadn't been invented, and you didn't really need to try a DC controller to see what it did back then; it made the train go - sometimes. The only real choice was a feedback or non feedback controller, which never seemed to me to make the slightest difference.

[Mike Storey]

You also need to decide what your budget is.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Nutford, there's a well worn, old DCC cliche that says that DCC can be as simple, or as complicated as you want it to be.
Everything from just 2 wires to the track and simply driving trains, to a full blown computer controlled or assisted layout, with all manner of sophisticated and automated features. Plus everything in between.
If I'm reading you correctly, some of your requirements may be straying into areas that require a bit more involvement on the complex and sophisticated side.
 
However, do not fear. There's usually more than one way to skin a cat (no animal cruelty intended).
 
 

....Oh regards the 'automation' - I didn't mean anything too fancy when I said 'auto running'. A station stop-start module which affected some trains, not others......

 
What might be called "proper automation", usually involves using a computer (PC, laptop etc,) and a software package, which I guess is not what you're looking for (at least not at this stage of the game).
 
However, certain automated actions can be done without involving a computer and that includes station or signal stops.
For this, you'll either need decoders that can respond to a required action, such as Lenz's Automatic Brake Control (ABC) feature, triggered by simple trackside modules;
...or, a trackside electronic module, designed to perform these functions under DCC.
Other than the fact that ABC equipped decoders will respond and non-ABC decoders won't, I don't know enough about this to say whether stopping actions can only be automatically applied to specific locos/trains?
 
 

some block working - essentially to stop one train hitting another, just like the real thing

A computer based software package would be able to do this.
Otherwise your options are limited (it is still possible).
Detection and block control devices designed for DC will not work on DCC.
 
It's important to remember that DCC is quite different to DC control, in that you are "driving the trains and not the track".
i.e. you do not control the track power.
 
I'm not sure of the best way to explain this....
The person driving the train is responsible for obeying signals and/or entering particular sections of track (just like the prototypical railway - apart from examples of automatic train operation ).
For block control under DCC, you need some method of instructing the driver of the train, more specifically the decoder inside the loco/train, to obey signals or line side electronic devices that control entry to the next block, or section of track.
 
Lenz sell a set of modules that allow a form of block control, but it relies on using decoders that are compatible with their ABC feature.

 

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/Asymmetrical.html. - click on the links to modules BM1, BM2 & BM3 from that page.

 

There's at least one or two another producers of similar DCC specific devices.
 

 

- and the ability to switch trains in the hidden fiddle yard - which isn't really a problem, just switching the points by reed switches would achieve that on either system I guess and you won't see any jerky stop/start motion.

A signal input from a detection device (e.g. like a reed switch) can be used to trigger a control module, which will then initiate a series of actions, such as change a series of points and signals or indicator lights.

I'm not sure what sort of ability there is to issue commands to stop and start locos, but a combination of this and something like a Lenz ABC arrangement could achieve what you want.

 

The NCE Mini-Panel is one such device.

https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/nce-owners-manual-mini-panel/

 

 

As Oldddudders (Ian) says in post no. 5 above, it will be best to look at what options are available to allow you to perform the tasks you require and then work backwards to find either the DCC system(s) that support them, or if they are not system specific.

 

 

.

.

[Mike Storey]

Nutford - what do you mean by wanting block control? Do you just want the signals to automatically change back to red/stop when a train passes, or for the signal in rear to change back to caution/yellow etc.

 

Or do you actually want to physically prevent two trains in the same section, or from colliding?

 

Or indeed, both?

[Trip]

You also need to decide what your budget is.

 

And then set aside about three times that amount.

[Phil S]

Regarding train identification - I'm not sure how much of that I would need. I don't need the system to show me or even know what train is where, just to stop specific trains at a station and not others - reed switches/magnets?; and alternately swap trains in the fiddle yard if I want to - again reed switches would do that by changing the points. The Block Signalling module I mentioned doesn't apparently care what the train is, just whether or not a train is on the next stretch of line, which is all that matters. I've maybe confused things by implying I wanted to automate the layout - I don't really want to do that to any great extent beyond the above."

 

Unfortunately, these are the very actions which are 'simpler' in analogue, and 'harder' in Digital - BECAUSE - whilst in Analogue the 'don't care' approach works because it is all built in to the track sectioning - ANY train entering that track will stop when the power is removed, and ANY (or ALL) trains in that section will move off when power is re-applied  --- IN DIGITAL it is not normal to remove the power - and you need to KNOW WHICH LOCO to stop, and when .... therefore for even the basic automation you advocate, you will need track sensors and software which can monitor the point settings (best done if the software can control the points - usually via dcc) to know which way the train is moving and WILL move.

 

My 'compromise' solution for the hidden yard avoided the 'need to know' the loco DCC number by simply cutting the track power, as with analogue - so with the 6 tracks I suggested, 5 have no power, and the one with the entry points set, has power ... the train enters and breaks a beam at the stop position - thi removes the power and changes the points (Heathcote modules will do this for you - with analogue control or relay on/off.

The other part of my idea was that the dcc controllers allow more than 1 loco to 'be running' ... (if they have track power) ... so either you rotate through 6 controllers, picking them up in turn, or you call up the dcc codes in turn on the same controller, or with RR+Co = you have all 6 controllers on screen at the same time  ... you just need to know which one to use !!

 

The larger the layout, and the more 'stopping' or route-critical sections your layout has, the more detectors you will need, and these then need to be linked back to the computer ( Lenz has the RS bus for this, Roco the Roconet,  there is also Loconet  (both these now used by Z21) .. S88 is an 'old' bus usable as a standalone connection into the software, and now there is 'Railcom' where the signal is returned through the dcc track/accessory bus.

[Nutford]

Nutford - what do you mean by wanting block control? Do you just want the signals to automatically change back to red/stop when a train passes, or for the signal in rear to change back to caution/yellow etc.

 

Or do you actually want to physically prevent two trains in the same section, or from colliding?

 

Or indeed, both?

The latter Mike. Both would be fun, but I haven't won the lottery and if 'er-indoors knew half what I had in mind there'd be trouble already! I don't  even need it for the whole layout - if it operated inside the hidden bit it would achieve the purpose of giving a good gap between trains - probably only two running on each line at a time anyway. And I designed a simple setup to easily control most signals mechanically (for effect, not talking exact prototype!) from the point motors for a few pence a time.

[Nutford]

Regarding train identification - I'm not sure how much of that I would need. I don't need the system to show me or even know what train is where, just to stop specific trains at a station and not others - reed switches/magnets?; and alternately swap trains in the fiddle yard if I want to - again reed switches would do that by changing the points. The Block Signalling module I mentioned doesn't apparently care what the train is, just whether or not a train is on the next stretch of line, which is all that matters. I've maybe confused things by implying I wanted to automate the layout - I don't really want to do that to any great extent beyond the above."

 

Unfortunately, these are the very actions which are 'simpler' in analogue, and 'harder' in Digital - BECAUSE - whilst in Analogue the 'don't care' approach works because it is all built in to the track sectioning - ANY train entering that track will stop when the power is removed, and ANY (or ALL) trains in that section will move off when power is re-applied  --- IN DIGITAL it is not normal to remove the power - and you need to KNOW WHICH LOCO to stop, and when .... therefore for even the basic automation you advocate, you will need track sensors and software which can monitor the point settings (best done if the software can control the points - usually via dcc) to know which way the train is moving and WILL move.

 

My 'compromise' solution for the hidden yard avoided the 'need to know' the loco DCC number by simply cutting the track power, as with analogue - so with the 6 tracks I suggested, 5 have no power, and the one with the entry points set, has power ... the train enters and breaks a beam at the stop position - thi removes the power and changes the points (Heathcote modules will do this for you - with analogue control or relay on/off.

The other part of my idea was that the dcc controllers allow more than 1 loco to 'be running' ... (if they have track power) ... so either you rotate through 6 controllers, picking them up in turn, or you call up the dcc codes in turn on the same controller, or with RR+Co = you have all 6 controllers on screen at the same time  ... you just need to know which one to use !!

 

The larger the layout, and the more 'stopping' or route-critical sections your layout has, the more detectors you will need, and these then need to be linked back to the computer ( Lenz has the RS bus for this, Roco the Roconet,  there is also Loconet  (both these now used by Z21) .. S88 is an 'old' bus usable as a standalone connection into the software, and now there is 'Railcom' where the signal is returned through the dcc track/accessory bus.

Phil - I'll have to re-read this when I've more time, but I think the first bit is exactly what I have in mind. If I have two through routes, loco enters route 1, Loco switches points, loco has no power so stops. Other loco on route 2 now has power, so starts :-)) All I need is a reed switch - or in modern parlance as you suggest to break a beam sounds much better - on both tracks. 

 

We're not talking loads of sidings here btw - 2 in one direction, 1 in the other, just to amuse me and avoid the 'train goes off set, train re-appears' scenario!

 

Regarding amount of 'stopping' at stations - two stations affected, each with 2 relevant platforms. (Masham is at the end of a branch so the 'train circulating' issue doesn't apply). So it's not a massive project. TBH - for me part of the fun is setting a challenge to make something work, not just running the trains!

[Mike Storey]

The latter Mike. Both would be fun, but I haven't won the lottery and if 'er-indoors knew half what I had in mind there'd be trouble already! I don't  even need it for the whole layout - if it operated inside the hidden bit it would achieve the purpose of giving a good gap between trains - probably only two running on each line at a time anyway. And I designed a simple setup to easily control most signals mechanically (for effect, not talking exact prototype!) from the point motors for a few pence a time.

 

Ok. In that case, I do not know how you would do it using DCC, without using route setting etc, but maybe someone does.

 

An alternative is to use the point motors, or the switches that operate the point motors, if they are not the solenoid type. If you a Tortoise motor or something similar, you can use the auxiliary connections that change the frog polarity to also isolate a section of track (or two sections). The drawback is that you will have to isolate a section of track leading to each signal/point where you want to prevent collisions, which is not usually done in DCC. But if you want to do this, then you route the power connection from the bus to that section, via either the point motor auxiliary connections, or to the switch you are using to operate the point motor, wired so that one section of track is off when the point is set in one direction, but on when the point is changed to the other direction. If you want to protect both directions, then you create two isolated sections and wire both via the switch but on opposite poles. (You need only use the neutral bus connection for each, the positive can go direct to each track section from the bus wire). I have done this on a previous DC layout (via the switch rather than the motor) but not on DCC, but I cannot see why it would not work on DCC. Perhaps someone more experienced could tell us whether they see a problem with doing that?

 

If you use solenoid point motors, then I don't think this would work (unless the type of motor you are using happens to have auxiliary connections to alter the frog polarity?) without using micro-switches. I have never done it that way, but I have seen elsewhere that this is possible. Wiring via the switch that operates the point motor would be no good for solenoids, because the switch is normally only a passing contact type, and you need a double-pole/double throw type to make this work.

[Ron Ron Ron]

...... If I have two through routes, loco enters route 1, Loco switches points, loco has no power so stops. Other loco on route 2 now has power, so starts....

 

 

Nutford, my bold on the quote from your last post.

"...loco on route 2 now has power, so starts..."

 

Just to assess your understanding of how DCC works (it might help here), may I ask, how does that loco start?

 

 

.

[Dungrange]

As Nutford's layout is to be set in the 1930s, I assume that DCC sound and lighting may be of limited interest.  However, it's probably worth highlighting that if a DCC layout is to be controlled by switching sections of track on and off, this will also kill the sound and lights, which is the main selling point of DCC as far as I am concerned.  Personally, I'd have thought that it would be much easier and cheaper to achieve the level of automation desired using analogue control as Phil has already highlighted.

[RAF96]

 

It does limit the choice of decoders to a few brands (mostly German) so you'd miss out on "buying British"

 

 

Hornby Sapphire works with ABC

[Nutford]

Nutford, my bold on the quote from your last post.

"...loco on route 2 now has power, so starts..."

 

Just to assess your understanding of how DCC works (it might help here), may I ask, how does that loco start?

 

 

.

I think you're beginning to see why I need help lol!

Now in my simple mind, I set loco 1 to 'go'. Loco 1 goes. Loco 1 loses power, so stops. Now that bit I know is right!

But then loco 1 gets power back, so starts again ;-)  But... you're going to tell me that's not what happens I think..... :-(        Because if it does, loco 2 circulates, enters the track it left, where it also changes the points  - back to where they were, so loco 1 has power again. (For clarity, I perhaps wasn't over-clear what is happening here - 2 or 3 parallel lines, which locos enter alternately. Each loco switches the points to the next line while in that section, so losing power but starting any train waiting on the parallel line, which then circulates and 'returns the favour'). But do I know if when a DCC loco loses power it will auto-start when it gets power back - nope, not a clue, never even gave it a second's thought ;-(

 

Re do I want sound and lights - well frankly no. I know some people love it, and it is impressive, but for me it's a bit take it or leave it, and it's certainly not a cheap option. So - do I actually need DCC? Well, that's part of the point of this thread tbh. In a way I'd love the answer to be 'no', because it would be much cheaper. I could easily achieve the 'one in, different one out' scenario. I could thinking about it easily achieve the block working - reed switches or indeed beam breakers or whatever the correct term is, could disconnect the power supply behind a train, and then reconnect it by the same means further down the track - done in the hidden sidings, so no visible sudden stops. There are - as I recall anyway - plenty of start-stop modules out there for DC. I don't want particularly to have sound or lights, and if I have working signals I would operate them mechanically linked to point motors, which I'm not bothered whether they are run by DCC or switches.

Hmmm.............!!

 

BUT - I have the issue with trains at different speeds. Now that could be achieved, as I think a post above suggests, by switching the power between different controllers, plus perhaps a clever use of start-stop modules... but boy could that get complicated. Well actually not necessarily thinking about it. Will have to give that a bit more thought.  5 blocks on the running line would allow 2 trains to circulate without the possibility of hitting each other, using 2 controllers set to the desired speeds for the two trains. Problem is when a train leaves the running line...... but then that would have to be a controlled operation, so could also switch power back on to the dead section behind it, and set both controllers to the same speed........ (You may hear cogs going round very slowly at this point).

 

And - does DCC make locomotives run better? I've seen people say 'yes'. And I've seen people say 'no'. Does it, and is it enough to make a real difference.... And then there are all the other advantages - being able to have more than one loco on the same block of track when you want to is a huge plus as is double-heading (though I guess an unpowered loco solves that one).....

 

Thanks again guys for all this fantastic advice - truly, truly grateful. Fortunately for once I had the sense to ask first and do later, so am at the point of baseboard built (well a chunk of it) - but wiring not yet started ;-))

Edited November 17, 2017 by Nutford

[johnb]

I am sure that we all appreciate your thanks Nutford. We seem to have got you thinking anyway!!!!

 

Do come back when (not if) you have any more questions and we'll do our best to help

 

Personally I'm pleased to have been able to assist.

 

regards

 

John

[Nigelcliffe]

I think you're beginning to see why I need help lol!

Now in my simple mind, I set loco 1 to 'go'. Loco 1 goes. Loco 1 loses power, so stops. Now that bit I know is right!

But then loco 1 gets power back, so starts again ;-)  But... you're going to tell me that's not what happens I think..... :-(        Because if it does, loco 2 circulates, enters the track it left, where it also changes the points  - back to where they were, so loco 1 has power again. (For clarity, I perhaps wasn't over-clear what is happening here - 2 or 3 parallel lines, which locos enter alternately. Each loco switches the points to the next line while in that section, so losing power but starting any train waiting on the parallel line, which then circulates and 'returns the favour'). But do I know if when a DCC loco loses power it will auto-start when it gets power back - nope, not a clue, never even gave it a second's thought ;-(

 

Well, that can work, but its ( a ) horrible as locos will suddenly stop, and ( b ) not what DCC is supposed to do.

 

DCC is supposed to have track power to all locos at all time.   Locos change their speed between "stop" and "some speed" by commands sent over the track, and the decoder changes the speed.   But, importantly, there is always power.  

So, to stop a DCC loco in any "nice" way has to be done in one of two ways:

• The central system (probably a computer if not a human) knows where a loco is, and issues an instruction to the loco.  For an automated system to do this, it has to know where a specific loco is on the layout with some reasonable precision.   

  For a "general can be anything" layout, that's a difficult undertaking and requires a fair bit of hardware.  

  For certain specific designs of layout (or parts of layout) it may be more reasonable - for example if you know you've set a particular loco along a circular route, then the system knows that is the only loco on that route, so when "something" passes a detector the system knows that "something" must be the loco it is controlling and can alter the speed.   (example hardware for this: CML Electronics shuttle module which works with Digitrax and (probably) Uhlenbrock DCC systems). 

• Track side local "stop" or "slow down" instructions.   The prime example in this area is Asymmetric DCC (also called "Lenz ABC") as described in a posting above.  This is much simpler to implement, but only does certain things.   So, if you set a signal against a train path, you can link that signal to the ABC brake device for a length of track ahead of the signal.  All trains fitted with compatible decoders will slow to a stop in a controlled manner infront of the signal.  Move the signal to "proceed" and the linked ABC device is bypassed, and the compatible decoder will accelerate back to its previous running speed.   (Trains without a compatible decoder will ignore the signal and just drive straight through it all).  

Re do I want sound and lights - well frankly no. I know some people love it, and it is impressive, but for me it's a bit take it or leave it, and it's certainly not a cheap option. So - do I actually need DCC? Well, that's part of the point of this thread tbh. In a way I'd love the answer to be 'no', because it would be much cheaper. I could easily achieve the 'one in, different one out' scenario. I could thinking about it easily achieve the block working - reed switches or indeed beam breakers or whatever the correct term is, could disconnect the power supply behind a train, and then reconnect it by the same means further down the track - done in the hidden sidings, so no visible sudden stops. There are - as I recall anyway - plenty of start-stop modules out there for DC. I don't want particularly to have sound or lights, and if I have working signals I would operate them mechanically linked to point motors, which I'm not bothered whether they are run by DCC or switches.

Hmmm.............!!

 

BUT - I have the issue with trains at different speeds. Now that could be achieved, as I think a post above suggests, by switching the power between different controllers, plus perhaps a clever use of start-stop modules... but boy could that get complicated. Well actually not necessarily thinking about it. Will have to give that a bit more thought.  5 blocks on the running line would allow 2 trains to circulate without the possibility of hitting each other, using 2 controllers set to the desired speeds for the two trains. Problem is when a train leaves the running line......

 

You might want to explore the DIY-build system supplied by MERG called "SuperBloc". Its a DC system designed primarily for circular layouts where several trains follow each other around a layout at appropriate speeds without crashing into each other, slowing as needed, etc..  As its a kit from MERG its not expensive.

 

BUT - does DCC make locomotives run better? I've seen people say 'yes'. And I've seen people say 'no'. Does it, and is it enough to make a real difference.... And then there are all the other advantages - being able to have more than one loco on the same block of track when you want to is a huge plus as is double-heading (though I guess an unpowered loco solves that one).....

 

Thanks again guys for all this fantastic advice - truly, truly grateful. Fortunately for once I had the sense to ask first and do later, so am at the point of baseboard built (well a chunk of it) - but wiring not yet started ;-))

Glad you're thinking before spending a pile of cash then finding it doesn't work without throwing half of it away and spending an even larger amount of money.

 

 

 

- Nigel

Edited November 17, 2017 by Nigelcliffe