Could this be shunted both ways prototypically

[MikeH_83]

I am working on my track plan which will be a single track line with a dual platform passing loop (Either southern or LMS atm as I cannot decide) anyway I can see that mostly the goods would be worked from the trains coming from the south and heading towards the east on the plan as this would be easiest..  However I am wondering if it would be prototypical enough to shunt when arriving from the opposite way and if so which way would it happen?  Either running into the bottom platform and then detaching the necessary wagons and shunting over to the other side and then into the goods yard.  Or would it just pull through the top platform going the wrong way and straight into the yard?  Was that second way even possible?  (I know in an ideal world a change of points or adding some more would be ideal but I am quite limited on space while keeping the curves quite shallow)

 

Many Thanks

[Gordon A]

What scale are you modelling in and what space?

 

Gordon A

[Davexoc]

What if there was a crossover from the south into the headshunt, thus creating another passing loop but clear of the platforms?

That would allow an eastbound freight to clear the line without entering the station, and also access directly into the bay platform becomes possible, which I would have thought would be a standard requirement.

 

Dave

[newbryford]

ISTR reading that quite a few single track lines were designed to be shunted in one direction. Especially those running to a terminus.

 

A train going down the branch would drop off and pickup wagons in the same shunt.

it came back the other way, it would just keep on going through.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[MikeH_83]

What scale are you modelling in and what space?

 

Gordon A

I am modelling in 4mm scale 4-SF.  The top section I have about 11ft length after a sharpish exit from the fiddleyard onto the scenic bit but I want to keep the station on a gentle curve but the rest no more than 3ft radius..  It is quite a struggle to fit it all in while looking right

 

What if there was a crossover from the south into the headshunt, thus creating another passing loop but clear of the platforms?

That would allow an eastbound freight to clear the line without entering the station, and also access directly into the bay platform becomes possible, which I would have thought would be a standard requirement.

 

Dave

I did think about that..  After the bottom point it is on a too sharp curve to reliably put a point in I have found..  I could put one in right at the bottom of the headshunt though but with it being quite a distance from the station I didn't know if it would look abit wrong..

 

ISTR reading that quite a few single track lines were designed to be shunted in one direction. Especially those running to a terminus.

 

A train going down the branch would drop off and pickup wagons in the same shunt.

it came back the other way, it would just keep on going through.

 

Cheers,

Mick

I was thinking I might have to succumb to doing that.  I was trying to make it more of a single track mainline so I could run larger loco's at times but just wondered what (if any) correct movements would be to shunt from the other direction

[Trog]

Is that yard not easier to shunt for a train running east to south?

 

An east to south train could draw straight into the headshunt subject to the train not being too long so clearing the mainline. Then the loco could set the train back into the sidings to work the traffic, before drawing forward into the headshunt and setting back onto the mainline and running off to the south. Working the sidings by a south to east train would involve quite a bit of running round to get the wagons needing to be left in the sidings on the east side of the loco, then those to be removed to the south.

[sulzer27jd]

Is that yard not easier to shunt for a train running east to south?

 

An east to south train could draw straight into the headshunt subject to the train not being too long so clearing the mainline. Then the loco could set the train back into the sidings to work the traffic, before drawing forward into the headshunt and setting back onto the mainline and running off to the south. Working the sidings by a south to east train would involve quite a bit of running round to get the wagons needing to be left in the sidings on the east side of the loco, then those to be removed to the south.

 

I agree with Trog, but the platforms would be used to hold the train as this maintains signalling control over the movements. This is the more likely method of working. It also means that the brake van would stay with the train, in the platform. As a matter of interest, the intermediate stations on the Caledonian mainline between Perth and Dunblane used this shunting method over a double track mainline.

[jim.snowdon]

To me, this is a layout where the yard would only have been served by trains running East to South. The amount of shunting required in the opposite direction, whilst appealing to the modeller, would simply have been too much complication in the real world.

 

The train would have come in from the East with all the wagons from previous stations at the rear. These would have been uncoupled as a block and left in the platform whilst the locomotive drew forward into the headshunt with the rest of the train and shunted as necessary before returning it to the platform, having dropped off the deliveries and picked up the outgoing traffic. Depending on the amount of traffic, use might also have been made of the other platform to hold that part of the train not destined for that station.

 

Jim

[MikeH_83]

Is that yard not easier to shunt for a train running east to south?

 

An east to south train could draw straight into the headshunt subject to the train not being too long so clearing the mainline. Then the loco could set the train back into the sidings to work the traffic, before drawing forward into the headshunt and setting back onto the mainline and running off to the south. Working the sidings by a south to east train would involve quite a bit of running round to get the wagons needing to be left in the sidings on the east side of the loco, then those to be removed to the south.

I agree with Trog, but the platforms would be used to hold the train as this maintains signalling control over the movements. This is the more likely method of working. It also means that the brake van would stay with the train, in the platform. As a matter of interest, the intermediate stations on the Caledonian mainline between Perth and Dunblane used this shunting method over a double track mainline.

To me, this is a layout where the yard would only have been served by trains running East to South. The amount of shunting required in the opposite direction, whilst appealing to the modeller, would simply have been too much complication in the real world.

 

The train would have come in from the East with all the wagons from previous stations at the rear. These would have been uncoupled as a block and left in the platform whilst the locomotive drew forward into the headshunt with the rest of the train and shunted as necessary before returning it to the platform, having dropped off the deliveries and picked up the outgoing traffic. Depending on the amount of traffic, use might also have been made of the other platform to hold that part of the train not destined for that station.

 

Jim

 

Thanks,  I didn't know if it was "ok" to pull straight into the top platform effectively on the wrong road but it seems it's fine to do that under proper signalling.

[sulzer27jd]

Thanks,  I didn't know if it was "ok" to pull straight into the top platform effectively on the wrong road but it seems it's fine to do that under proper signalling.

 

Mike, that was not what I was meaning. The train would approach from the east and pull into the same platform as a southbound passenger service, controlled by the normal signal for that manoeuvre. The engine and cut of wagons would move off along the mainline line to the south, it would then reverse and propel, controlled by a normal signal movement into the other platform (eastbound). From there they would have access to the yard. The remains of the train would sit in the bottom (southbound) platform. On completion of its shunting, the engine would reverse out of the yard, then down the mainline to the south, before reversing onto the original part of the train in the bottom platform.

 

That was certainly how they worked that yard arrangement here.

 

John

[Boris]

Don't forget guys there were other ways of moving vehicles than using a loco, aside from horse/tractor.  Vehicles were shunted with gravity, towed/propped from other lines and shunted on the fly, a couple of these are eminently modelable for a bit more interesting operation.  You can buy a fly shunting wagon that could easily be used to represent gravity shunting as well, shunting with a chain is easy to model as well, it's also really fun.

[MikeH_83]

Mike, that was not what I was meaning. The train would approach from the east and pull into the same platform as a southbound passenger service, controlled by the normal signal for that manoeuvre. The engine and cut of wagons would move off along the mainline line to the south, it would then reverse and propel, controlled by a normal signal movement into the other platform (eastbound). From there they would have access to the yard. The remains of the train would sit in the bottom (southbound) platform. On completion of its shunting, the engine would reverse out of the yard, then down the mainline to the south, before reversing onto the original part of the train in the bottom platform.

 

That was certainly how they worked that yard arrangement here.

 

John

Ah I see, Thanks for that!  It might be better to see if I can fit a point in to join onto the headshunt further down the line then so that I could reduce the movements?

 

Don't forget guys there were other ways of moving vehicles than using a loco, aside from horse/tractor.  Vehicles were shunted with gravity, towed/propped from other lines and shunted on the fly, a couple of these are eminently modelable for a bit more interesting operation.  You can buy a fly shunting wagon that could easily be used to represent gravity shunting as well, shunting with a chain is easy to model as well, it's also really fun.

Some interesting ideas there!  I shall give it some thought!

[Flying Pig]

Ah I see, Thanks for that!  It might be better to see if I can fit a point in to join onto the headshunt further down the line then so that I could reduce the movements?

 

 

Simple trailing access to the sidings for a southbound train would seem to make more sense at first sight and would certainly need fewer movements to work with a locomotive. However, there were stations laid out like yours - see this discussion of Wooler on the North Eastern Railway:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91157-headshunt-operation-question/

 

It looks like an unnecessary complication - perhaps it was done to avoid a facing point on the running line?

[Joseph_Pestell]

That track layout is an absolute classic but particularly common on the LSW, so I suggest that may make your decision for you.

 

And the reason that it is such a classic is that it is so easy to shunt from both directions.

 

Travelling east to south, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled close to the front of the train. Rest of the train left in loop while loco pulls forward, reverses onto the other line, and then into the headshunt.

 

Travelling south to east, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled to the rear of the train. Loco runs round the train and pulls wagons into headshunt.

 

Simples!

 

Edit to add: Much as I like this type of station, if you are not too bothered about which part of the Southern you might want to look at former SER stations such as Rye or Dorking Town. They have staggered platforms and the goods facilities spread around the site which can make for more operational interest.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[MikeH_83]

Simple trailing access to the sidings for a southbound train would seem to make more sense at first sight and would certainly need fewer movements to work with a locomotive. However, there were stations laid out like yours - see this discussion of Wooler on the North Eastern Railway:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91157-headshunt-operation-question/

 

It looks like an unnecessary complication - perhaps it was done to avoid a facing point on the running line?

Thanks, I will have a good read of that thread.  I think I may leave the plan as is then

 

That track layout is an absolute classic but particularly common on the LSW, so I suggest that may make your decision for you.

 

And the reason that it is such a classic is that it is so easy to shunt from both directions.

 

Travelling east to south, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled close to the front of the train. Rest of the train left in loop while loco pulls forward, reverses onto the other line, and then into the headshunt.

 

Travelling south to east, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled to the rear of the train. Loco runs round the train and pulls wagons into headshunt.

 

Simples!

 

Edit to add: Much as I like this type of station, if you are not too bothered about which part of the Southern you might want to look at former SER stations such as Rye or Dorking Town. They have staggered platforms and the goods facilities spread around the site which can make for more operational interest.

Thanks,  I guess I will have to go southern then..  I suppose I could make up some story as to why the occasional loco from another area might appear from time to time lol (namely my slw class 24.. it's too good not to run!)  The shunting sounds good and should provide some interesting operation.  I will have alot at those stations. Cheers

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks, I will have a good read of that thread.  I think I may leave the plan as is then

 

Thanks,  I guess I will have to go southern then..  I suppose I could make up some story as to why the occasional loco from another area might appear from time to time lol (namely my slw class 24.. it's too good not to run!)  The shunting sounds good and should provide some interesting operation.  I will have alot at those stations. Cheers

 

I can think of lots of LSW stations like that. But that's not to say that there were not any on the LMS, I will have a look as I am sure that there must have been. It would be handy if you can run the layout in two versions. Just needs buildings and signals that can be changed over easily.

[Flying Pig]

That track layout is an absolute classic but particularly common on the LSW, so I suggest that may make your decision for you.

 

And the reason that it is such a classic is that it is so easy to shunt from both directions.

 

Travelling east to south, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled close to the front of the train. Rest of the train left in loop while loco pulls forward, reverses onto the other line, and then into the headshunt. That's three reversals to reach a siding.

 

Travelling south to east, the wagons to be left in the goods yard are marshalled to the rear of the train. Loco runs round the train and pulls wagons into headshunt.That's a runround and a reversal to reach a siding.

 

Simples!

 

...

 

 

I'm not convinced this is simpler than direct trailing access from running line to sidings, which would only require a single reversal for an east to south train and the same runround plus one reversal for a south to east train.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks,  I didn't know if it was "ok" to pull straight into the top platform effectively on the wrong road but it seems it's fine to do that under proper signalling.

 

I think it would be very unlikely as it would involve extra (i.e. costs more) signalling for very little benefit.  A line like that would be relatively quiet anyway 'back in the day' so the train would arrive and work exactly as you originally suggested (i.e. cut-off in the right direction platform, go ahead with the engine and wagons to detach, set back into the other platform then go ahead into the headshunt before setting back int the sidings - which was by far the easiest, and therefore quickest (= cheapest) way to do the job.

 

As far as fly shunting is concerned the layout isn;t really suitable for it unless you are only putting off one or two wagons as there doesn't appear to be enough room for the engine to gain sufficient speed while running from the headshunt towards the platform line.  and in any case only one siding could be fly shunted as the points to the other two are worked from the signalbox which would make fly shunting impossible as the Signalman wouldn't have time to change the points behind the engine as it accelerated away from whatever wagon(s) it was hauling.  N.B. Fly shunting requires wagons to be pulled, not pushed, and is rather a dangerous and difficult procedure - bad enough hooking of a wagon when it is being pulled but far more difficult and dangerous to do that when you're running alongside it and waiting for the Driver to tap the brake to slacken the coupling.

[MikeH_83]

I can think of lots of LSW stations like that. But that's not to say that there were not any on the LMS, I will have a look as I am sure that there must have been. It would be handy if you can run the layout in two versions. Just needs buildings and signals that can be changed over easily.

Thanks,  Yeah I think it might be too difficult to switch all the buildings and signals, But another option would to occasionally have a heritage railway running session

 

I'm not convinced this is simpler than direct trailing access from running line to sidings, which would only require a single reversal for an east to south train and the same runround plus one reversal for a south to east train.

I think I could get away with putting one in at the end of the headshunt if need be.

 

I think it would be very unlikely as it would involve extra (i.e. costs more) signalling for very little benefit.  A line like that would be relatively quiet anyway 'back in the day' so the train would arrive and work exactly as you originally suggested (i.e. cut-off in the right direction platform, go ahead with the engine and wagons to detach, set back into the other platform then go ahead into the headshunt before setting back int the sidings - which was by far the easiest, and therefore quickest (= cheapest) way to do the job.

 

As far as fly shunting is concerned the layout isn;t really suitable for it unless you are only putting off one or two wagons as there doesn't appear to be enough room for the engine to gain sufficient speed while running from the headshunt towards the platform line.  and in any case only one siding could be fly shunted as the points to the other two are worked from the signalbox which would make fly shunting impossible as the Signalman wouldn't have time to change the points behind the engine as it accelerated away from whatever wagon(s) it was hauling.  N.B. Fly shunting requires wagons to be pulled, not pushed, and is rather a dangerous and difficult procedure - bad enough hooking of a wagon when it is being pulled but far more difficult and dangerous to do that when you're running alongside it and waiting for the Driver to tap the brake to slacken the coupling.

Thanks,  At least I can see how it will work now and keep it looking reliastic

[jim.snowdon]

Ah I see, Thanks for that!  It might be better to see if I can fit a point in to join onto the headshunt further down the line then so that I could reduce the movements?

Do-able, but from a full size perspective a bit less than desirable as would introduce two new point ends (one is a trap point) and a facing point lock, all additional cost and maintenance.

 

Jim

[ejstubbs]

You might find some further illumination on this thread which I started a few years back, regarding a similar track plan to yours at a real station.