Michael Delamar Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Some may find this interesting. https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-using-tops-1978-online 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Just watched it - a most interesting film. Shame such rail freight has now long gone in the UK. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Just watched this also. https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-darlington-railway-1960-online Some more here. https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/collection/railways-on-film Brit15 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 Says a great deal about the evolution of computers too... loved the clip with folded card notice ON LINE on top of the terminal... a little more charming than a flickering LED! Griff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Very interesting, but yea gads the shear volume of punch cards the process produces plus the opportunity for "human intervention errors" horrifies the database coder in me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I had not seen that particular film before. The earlier TOPS machines had used a longer punch card, but by the time I joined Bristol TOPS in 1978 the type of card seen in the film was still in use. The film seems an accurate portrayal of events, though I did not quite catch the swear words of the Bescot shunter when he was requested to shunt out the wagon! cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Very interesting, but yea gads the shear volume of punch cards the process produces plus the opportunity for "human intervention errors" horrifies the database coder in me... Sure there was plenty of scope for things to go wrong, but the TOPS system was designed to prevent many of the errors from occurring. For example whenever a train went from one yard to another the newly printed/punched cards from the output consist would always have correct up to date information on them. Of course there were legendary tales of complete yard files being knocked off the desk scattering cards everywhere, which could be fun! cheers 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 I had seen another TOPS film at the time of the system’s rollout, although my job never required me to use it or get to know it in detail. OTOH, a friend had worked for IBM in the late ‘60s, and he was astonished when I mentioned some of the kit in use. It appears that BR’s purchase from Southern Pacific caused IBM to re-open manufacture of some obsolete items, just to get it running. Inasmuchas TOPS enabled colossal savings in rolling stock by exposing surplus fleets, the investment was worthwhile. Sadly the business had already started drifting away some time before the new efficiencies cut in. A great idea whose time had already gone. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Wasn't TOPS derived from a system used by the American Southern Pacific Railroad, or some such ? Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 Inasmuchas TOPS enabled colossal savings in rolling stock by exposing surplus fleets, the investment was worthwhile. Sadly the business had already started drifting away some time before the new efficiencies cut in. A great idea whose time had already gone. The connecting to the hardware end of the job on site was down to my colleagues on the Telecomms side of the office. When the census of wagons was done on the Birmingham division at commissioning about 1100 empty wagons that no-one knew existed were found hidden away in various obscure locations. It was shortly after that the yard at Norton Junction near Brownhills, known as Bescot Down Empties Sidings, was closed. After most of the old Chase collieries closed it had been used to dump any wagons not immediately needed for traffic. Problem was that anything not moving in that area was easy meat for the metal fairies so most ended up red-carded due to missing bearings. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 What a great film - thanks for posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2018 Says a great deal about the evolution of computers too... loved the clip with folded card notice ON LINE on top of the terminal... a little more charming than a flickering LED! Griff Basically there to distinguish it from other units which were offline - but were still working. I had not seen that particular film before. The earlier TOPS machines had used a longer punch card, but by the time I joined Bristol TOPS in 1978 the type of card seen in the film was still in use. The film seems an accurate portrayal of events, though I did not quite catch the swear words of the Bescot shunter when he was requested to shunt out the wagon! cheers The Ventek/Unidata terminals were first introduced on trial in 1973 although even after that some offices were equipped from new with the original IBM pattern terminals using the original IBM pattern large cards. The connecting to the hardware end of the job on site was down to my colleagues on the Telecomms side of the office. When the census of wagons was done on the Birmingham division at commissioning about 1100 empty wagons that no-one knew existed were found hidden away in various obscure locations. It was shortly after that the yard at Norton Junction near Brownhills, known as Bescot Down Empties Sidings, was closed. After most of the old Chase collieries closed it had been used to dump any wagons not immediately needed for traffic. Problem was that anything not moving in that area was easy meat for the metal fairies so most ended up red-carded due to missing bearings. All sorts of amusing things came to light during cut-over and the number entry stage. It was common to find wagons with numbers which didn't agree with the allocated block of numbers for that type of wagon in the old rolling stock records, it was not unusual for wagons to be found carrying different painted numbers from one side to the other and it was sometimes found that neither of the painted numbers agreed with the cast numberplates. The rarest ones were wagons with four different numbers - two different painted numbers and two different cast plate numbers. The 'discovery' of 'hidden' wagons - especially in collieries and also, to a lesser extent, in domestic coal yards was also quite amusing with the former no doubt quickly becoming financially embarassing for the NCB. But overall it all made a tremendous difference to teh way we worked and it allowed the management f empties to really bite - an area which had long been neglected because they were 'just empty wagons'. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2018 Having now had time to watch the whole film - with sound, too! - I am amused to note that the lady at the customer’s works, requesting the transit in the first place, and then having to have the vanfit diverted from Nottingham to Stoke, was, about a decade later, PA to the GM at Waterloo. It was not a happy relationship, I recall, and I think she may have been supplanted by another. Her smoking may not have helped. And the lad towards the end of the film with longish hair in an HVV and on the telephone, looks awfully like Colin, a trainee in my year, who I think became BR’s man in New York at one time. He was subsequently made some sort of scapegoat by Railtrack during their dispute with signallers. A very decent and competent bloke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I see 47555 gets it on the act at 12:25. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted January 6, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2018 I see 47555 gets it on the act at 12:25. I thought someone from Australia, NZ or other such place would have mentioned that.... but I guess that’s the passing of the commonwealth spirit for you Griff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 6, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2018 Not complaining, just a query, but as I can't view these because I'm not in the GB, does anyone have a work around? My current method is to try and find it on YouTube if it's uploaded there. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Absolutely fascinating, thanks for posting the link. The film shows how much of the job was still, despite computerisation, carried out verbally face-to-face or over the phone, and how much work was involved moving cards around - Thankfully by my short TOPS career (1987-89) cardless TOPS had been implemented. It also highlights how difficult it is for rail to compete for traffic in a small island like Britain; Consider the number of people involved in moving one, not even full, vent van, from Truro to Stoke, a move which could today be accomplished by road in one shift by a Driver and and a large van. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo C. Cupier Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 (edited) Consider the number of people involved in moving one, not even full, vent van, from Truro to Stoke, a move which could today be accomplished by road in one shift by a Driver and and a large van. Depends what you mean by one shift. When I was active on CB, one of my regular late evening contacts was a HGV driver taking a wagon and drag (as he called it) non-stop from St. Austell to a depot in Tamworth. He reckoned it was one of the longest trips in the UK which could be legally done while staying within driving hours regulations. Truro to Stoke would seem to be longer than that, so probably two shifts, but I concur with the general gist of your post. Edited January 6, 2018 by Theo C. Cupier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sf315 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Nice to see my local place Longport in the film. Used to love sitting on the wall watching shunting there. Also when on cross country runs at school we would run down there and sit on the wall rather than run round Westport lake as we were supposed to. bought back a few memories thanks Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyD Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 If you feel like reading all about TOPS, there's this "TOPS: The Story of a British Railways Project" available from the Railways Archive, all 122 pages. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=4923 Cheers, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) Thanks for posting this Andy. I'm slowly(!) trawling through the report and around page 45 onwards has some fascinating information regarding a St Blazey area - Potteries freight (6M26) Included in the consist are many OWV's and also an 'OWC' number M 419896 - not seen one of them before... Thanks again. Just spotted this bit... '...Our main programmer on the F.R.S. suite was Ian Turnbull, who had been in the news some years earlier when arrested in Poland for taking train photographs. Happily his detention did not last too long and did not prevent him doing an excellent job on this important part of the TOPS application software'. The whole report is an absolute goldmine of information for anyone, like me, who has an interest in BR Freight and Loco operations in the early TOPS era - brilliant! Edited April 13, 2018 by JohnH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) If you feel like reading all about TOPS, there's this "TOPS: The Story of a British Railways Project" available from the Railways Archive, all 122 pages. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=4923 Cheers, Andy. Thanks for the link, it is fascinating. I have not so far had much chance to read through much if this, but as a former TOPS clerk I am finding it to be a bit of a page turner. It answers many of the TOPS related questions that have been asked on here over the last few years, including implementation dates and an explanation of the wagon ordering system, edit - pages 69 to 79 show that implementation took from August 1973 (St Blazey and Plymouth) to October 1975, and I think each TOPS office gets a brief mention together with some detail about its location, or workload.. cheers Edited April 13, 2018 by Rivercider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted April 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2018 This is interesting too from one of the systems programmers for BR who worked on TOPS. http://www.les-smith.com/software/tops.htm 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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