Colman's wagons, real and model

[Nearholmer]

The Gurnos company seems to have been formed in 1900, and got swallowed into Amalgamated Anthracite Collieries in 1927.

 

To me, the picture seems to show a fairly new installation, so I'm guessing pre-WW1.

 

The date range seems to fit our wagon.

 

In truth, we'll probably never know for certain whether the "light" wagon is what we are looking for.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

And, yes, from what I can work out, which isn't a lot given that I find the geography, let alone the railway history, of South Wales very confusing, this particular Gurnos (there are others) was on the Swansea Vale Railway, taken over by the Midland in the 1870s.

[mozzer models]

And, yes, from what I can work out, which isn't a lot given that I find the geography, let alone the railway history, of South Wales very confusing, this particular Gurnos (there are others) was on the Swansea Vale Railway, taken over by the Midland in the 1870s.

its one valley over from me

[Compound2632]

The photo is said to be of the Diamond Colliery, which makes the presence of so many Gurnos wagons odd. According to this website (which dates the photo to the 1920s), the Diamond mine was re-opened in 1902 by Diamond Anthracite Mine Co. Ltd. This ties in nicely with Plate 165 in Montague's Gloucester RC&W Co. book, a 7-plank end door 10 ton wagon built Oct 1902, registered with the Midland Railway and leased with a maintenance contract by the colliery company from the wagon company. Acording to the caption to the same photo in Miles. Thomas and Watkins, The Swansea Vale Railway, Diamond Anthracite was "later" taken over by Gurnos Anthracite, who (if I've understood correctly) worked the adjacent pit. The address is given as Ystalyfera but the wagon is branded "Empty to Ynisei Siding, Neath & Brecon Rly" - just short of Ynisygeinon Junction, where the Neath & Brecon met the Midland's Swansea Vale line.

 

Miles et al. also reproduce an HMRS photo of a Pwllbach Colliery wagon, built by Hurst, Nelson in 1908 - contemporary with our Harrison & Camm Coleman's wagon and in an apparently similar livery. Pwllbach colliery was at the other end of the Gurnos complex of colliery branches to the Diamond colliery, so its presence at the latter would be a bit odd. To confuse matters even more, our photo of Coleman's wagon No. 19 with red ironwork, built by Harrison & Camm in 1908, appears in the HMRS Hurst Nelson collection - did Harrison & Camm's assets end up with Hurst Nelson or their successors, or is there a cataloguing error? Or is it that No. 19, like No. 35, has been farmed out to another firm for overhaul? - so quite possibly neither photo shows the livery in which they were originally turned out by Harrison & Camm in 1908?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

From what I can work out, there were three collieries, all fairly close to one another, which started at different dates. The earlier ones had periods 'lying fallow', but all came under the ownership of Gurnos  by early 1920s, then were further 'grouped' in 1927. Goodness only knows what was painted on the sides of wagons at various dates!

 

I had a look at 25" maps last night, and came away with a headache. The tangle of collieries, brickworks, tinplate works, chapels, houses etc etc was quite amazing, and the collieries seem to be labelled with names that don't necessarily reflect who owned/worked them.

[Compound2632]

The Midland Railway distance diagrams help a little, as does the Miles et al. book, but dating photos is a black art. When Gurnos Anthracite took over Diamond Anthracite, several things could have happened. Diamond's lease agreement with Gloucester could have been terminated, resulting in return of the wagon fleet to Gloucester, with an influx of Gurnos wagons to cover the traffic. Diamond's lease could have been taken on by the Gurnos Co, with wagons being repainted at next overhaul by Gloucester. Or ditto, but with re-branding being done swiftly on site. Kelham and others tell us that at this date the usual PO maintanence contract included re-painting at 3-yearly intervals.

[Compound2632]

Miles et al. also reproduce an HMRS photo of a Pwllbach Colliery wagon, built by Hurst, Nelson in 1908 - contemporary with our Harrison & Camm Coleman's wagon and in an apparently similar livery. Pwllbach colliery was at the other end of the Gurnos complex of colliery branches to the Diamond colliery, so its presence at the latter would be a bit odd. To confuse matters even more, our photo of Coleman's wagon No. 19 with red ironwork, built by Harrison & Camm in 1908, appears in the HMRS Hurst Nelson collection - did Harrison & Camm's assets end up with Hurst Nelson or their successors, or is there a cataloguing error? Or is it that No. 19, like No. 35, has been farmed out to another firm for overhaul? - so quite possibly neither photo shows the livery in which they were originally turned out by Harrison & Camm in 1908?

 

I've been leafing through the HMRS Hurst, Nelson collection and have come to the conclusion that the livery style seen in the photo of No. 19 - light body colour, intermediate ironwork, black lettering shaded in the intermediate colour - is a photographic livery used by that firm. (Richard - wagonman - already indicated that this could be the case.) There are numerous examples like that Pwllbach Colliery wagon, including wagons built for the Caledonian, North British, Glasgow and South Western, and Great Northern. So I think we can discount the photo of No. 19 as a true representation of the livery in traffic of Coleman's coal wagons. On the other hand, the Gloucester photo of No. 35 probably does represent the livery of wagons repaired and repainted by that company, as their photos do seem to be consistently of wagons in the condition in which they went into traffic - borne out by photos of wagons in traffic, where they exist! I don't think any of this affects the discussion of the livery borne by Coleman's covered goods wagons.

 

One has to be a little careful - one might leap to the conclusion that this J.C. Abbott wagon is also in photographic livery but on close inspection it can be seen to be varnished but unpainted wood with black (not red) iromwork and lettering black shaded red. The curb rail and solebar look darker than the side sheeting because they are of oak whereas the sheeting is pine.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Compound2632

[John-Miles]

On 05/04/2018 at 12:53, Compound2632 said:

 

Sorry to bring this up again but I've just been squinting closely at the label at the LH end of wagon No.35, a Harrison & Camm wagon after overhaul by the Gloucester C&W Co. The top line reads "Empty to"; the follwing lines are unclear but I believe the bottom line reads "Gurnos Mid Rly". This might give a clue to deciphering the rest of the inscription which doubtless includes a colliery name. However, with this information we can conclude that (a) this wagon livery came in before 1923 and (b) the mustard manufacturing process required anthracite.

The reason for sending the wagon to Gurnos is of course anthracite which, unlike other UK coal is almost completely free of arsenic and therefore much used by the food and drink industry. Nearholmer suggests above that this would have gone to Gurnos colliery. It might have, but Gurnos was a yard on the Swansea Vale serving a large number of anthracite collieries and the wagon could have picked up coal from any of them. I presume the wagon would have been routed to Norwich via Hereford, Birmingham, Leicester, Saxby and the M&GN so there is an excuse to run Colman's wagons for quite a lot of model railways.

Edited December 18, 2020 by John-Miles
typo

[Edwardian]

On 13/01/2018 at 15:48, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

On the BBC website, the train photo is captioned: The move to Carrow Works meant mustard seed could easily be brought in by train. 

 

 

 

Odd that the plate is reproduced back to front! There are two words on the lower body, so I'm assuming it does say 'mustard traffic'

 

On 13/01/2018 at 15:48, Compound2632 said:

 

So presumably the wagons are for bagged seed in, rather than finished mustard out. The mustard seed presumably came in by ship from India (as was, if readers will excuse my use of the term historically, with no current political opinion implied; India and Pakistan being the current principal producers, according to Wikipedia). The inference is that these wagons worked in block trains from port to factory so, like banana vans, you can't have one on your layout - either none or many. Which port?

 

 

 

Actually, this may not have been the case:

 

For at least 200 years, the flatlands of south Lincolnshire and north Cambridgeshire have produced almost the entire English mustard crop. The seeds sown and grown here have been used by Colman’s since the legendary brand’s birth in 1814, and at every harvest since have been taken to Norwich, milled, put into yellow jars and sold, eventually being used to spice up Sunday roasts up and down the land.  

 

[inland mustard seed traffic from North Cambridgeshire to Norwich?  Well, there was a GER route, of course, but readers of Castle Aching will guess where this is going ....].

 

“In many cases, our families have been growing mustard here in the east of England for more than 120 years,” says Michael Sly, acting chairman of the Thorney-based English Mustard Growers Co-operative. 

 

 

 “It’s said that Jeremiah Colman [founder of Colman’s] used to come to Wisbech to check the crop. The farmer would tip his mustard seeds into a bowl. Mr Colman – sitting at a table with a cut-out section to incorporate his impressive girth – would scoop the seeds round with his hand to check the quality. If he was happy he would seal the contract by giving you a cigar.”

 

[I'm sorry, but that's just begging to be the origin of the phrase ''close, but no cigar'']

 

Link

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Odd that the plate is reproduced back to front! There are two words on the lower body, so I'm assuming it does say 'mustard traffic'

 

Now you've got me re-reading the whole topic! When this topic was on the go (just over three years ago now - argh!) you posted that photo the right way round. Certainly the vans say "Mustard Traffic"; the only evidence for any other inscription is the tinplate van labelled "Starch Traffic". As you pointed out at the time, these vans date from 1908, so it's sheeted cattle wagons for you back in 1905. 

 

One point that wasn't considered at the time, I think, was the possible location for this photo and the 1896 cattle wagon train photo posted by @Nearholmer. The latter looks to be a rural setting - outskirts of Norwich? Or out in the sticks of Wisbech?

 

It seems to me that it would be surprising if Colemans invested in the purchase or hire of wagons for what was, I presume, a seasonal traffic. Therefore I'm inclined to stick with the theory that a move to imported Indian mustard prompted their acquisition. But that does leave open the question of port and hence route to Norwich.

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now you've got me re-reading the whole topic! When this topic was on the go (just over three years ago now - argh!) you posted that photo the right way round. Certainly the vans say "Mustard Traffic"; the only evidence for any other inscription is the tinplate van labelled "Starch Traffic". As you pointed out at the time, these vans date from 1908, so it's sheeted cattle wagons for you back in 1905. 

 

One point that wasn't considered at the time, I think, was the possible location for this photo and the 1896 cattle wagon train photo posted by @Nearholmer. The latter looks to be a rural setting - outskirts of Norwich? Or out in the sticks of Wisbech?

 

It seems to me that it would be surprising if Colemans invested in the purchase or hire of wagons for what was, I presume, a seasonal traffic. Therefore I'm inclined to stick with the theory that a move to imported Indian mustard prompted their acquisition. But that does leave open the question of port and hence route to Norwich.

 

Where is the evidence for the move to imported Indian mustard seed?

 

If there was, it must mark a need for increased supply, as the fen farmers apparently continued to supply Colman's at least up to the factory closure in Norwich (which prompted this topic). 

 

I can have the vans built earlier than 1905 if I want! I have, after all, moved shale oil exploration in Norfolk forward by about a decade (my world, my rules!).  Especially now I've worked out how to get the vans to Carrow Works via the West Norfolk!  Don't worry, the GER will be left with the outgoing mustard, to London via Ely then Cambridge, I should think. 

 

But these are West Norfolk discussions, best left for CA, so, moving back to the picture you mention:

 

 

I have never seen the locus in quo from the ground, but could this not be the area around Trowse, south of the line off to the Colman's works?

 

Possibly we are see the livestock pens mentioned on the map in the background.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

Yes, seems likely. I would suggest that it's directly opposite the mustard factory: the signal is the SP marked just to the left of the G of Great Eastern Railway, with the sidings behind the mustard train and the pointwork in the foreground being the beginning of the works sidings.

 

I can't recall mention of specific import traffic; I think this may just have been an argument from probability. If demand was increasing but fenland farmers had fixed capacity, then Empire imports would be logical.

[Nearholmer]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't recall mention of specific import traffic;

 

I'm sure we nailed, either earlier in this thread or in another one, that Colman boasted that they used entirely British seed.

 

I'm still on the lookout for any of these vans that proclaim "Starch Traffic", rather than "Mustard Traffic", because of the contemporary models so decorated. Fictional liveries on model vans were produced at the time ("Trueform Boots", in the same series as the Carette for Bassett-Lowke Colman's vans is the perfect example, and possibly the first such), but the "Starch Traffic" has the ring of truth about it.

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Yes, seems likely. I would suggest that it's directly opposite the mustard factory: the signal is the SP marked just to the left of the G of Great Eastern Railway, with the sidings behind the mustard train and the pointwork in the foreground being the beginning of the works sidings.

 

Unless its the other SP, further south. But there or thereabouts.

 

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I can't recall mention of specific import traffic; I think this may just have been an argument from probability. If demand was increasing but fenland farmers had fixed capacity, then Empire imports would be logical.

 

I think the point is that it is supposition that there were imports and that this is linked to the Colman's vans.  Let me say that if there were evidence of imports, and the date they started tied in with Colman's starting it's own covered wagon fleet, then the supposition would probably prove correct.  In which case, the vans are unlikely to have been on inland seed traffic from the Fens.

 

However, as it stands, we know the Fenland farms traditionally supplied this crop, and we have no evidence that they failed to meet demand or stopped supplying or that there were any imports for whatever reason. So I am bound to conclude that Colman's, for whatever reason, shifted from sheeted cattle wagons to its own vehicles c.1908 (earlier on my layout, should I choose) for inland seed traffic.  

 

Perhaps the GER was not making covered wagons available and Colman's found the sheeted cattle wagons unsuitable.  Something of a GWR v. Spillers situation, but with the GER being content to let Colman's have its own fleet. 

 

Given the Spiller's case, presumably use of own vans means less revenue for the railway company?  If so, then the GER would have less reason to object to the Colman's vehicles travelling via another company, which is nothing to the point here, but suits my fictional layout scheme.

[Compound2632]

OK both. But we are stuck, to my mind, with the problem of investment in a fleet of wagons for a seasonal traffic. Unless there was starch traffic all year round - from where?

[Nearholmer]

I went back through the thread, and I think we may have a photo of a starch van!

 

If you look at the photo showing the loco and wagons at a loading bay, and peer carefully at the second van in the rake .........

 

Its very fuzzy, so I'm not totally sure. What do you think?

 

As to what these vans carried, I still think boring old sacks of flour is the most probable. Definitely a bulky, year-round, cargo, which needs to be kept dry.

 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I went back through the thread, and I think we may have a photo of a starch van!

 

If you look at the photo showing the loco and wagons at a loading bay, and peer carefully at the second van in the rake .........

 

Its very fuzzy, so I'm not totally sure. What do you think?

 

As to what these vans carried, I still think boring old sacks of flour is the most probable. Definitely a bulky, year-round, cargo, which needs to be kept dry.

 

 

I concur.

 

To my eyes, that says "Starch Traffic" on the left hand van.

 

 

As to what it carried, well, you could produce starch pretty much anywhere, so I imagine that Colman's would do this in-house and so, as you say, be shipping in bagged flour.

 

All that flour tends to make sense of the fireless loco; the mustard is explosive in a different way! 

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I went back through the thread, and I think we may have a photo of a starch van!

 

If you look at the photo showing the loco and wagons at a loading bay, and peer carefully at the second van in the rake .........

 

Its very fuzzy, so I'm not totally sure. What do you think?

 

Yes, I think you're right there. I'm not sure we put a date on the fireless locomotive which I think is a Barclay rather than a Bagnall; the earliest surviving Barclay is from 1923 whereas there is a Bagnall from 1916; my rather quick flick through the internet hasn't revealed when they were first built by either manufacturer but anyway the photo looks inter-war. On the other hand your Carrette Starch Traffic livery is pre-Great War, I think you said. So maybe the Mustard Traffic branding didn't last long? The right-hand wagon seems to have lost all its lettering apart from Colman's. Both wagons are evidently of the same type as the Harrison & Camm 1908 Mustard Traffic vans, so are almost certainly examples of those wagons re- (or de-) lettered.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

Fireless locomotives seem to have been a thing on the Continent earlier than they were here. I would not read anything into the relatively late acquisition of one by Colman's therefore. Another company handling flour, Huntley & Palmers, did not, I think, have a fireless loco in the 1900s; it had gained a pair of Bagnalls in 1932. 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think you're right there. I'm not sure we put a date on the fireless locomotive which I think is a Barclay rather than a Bagnall; the earliest surviving Barclay is from 1923 whereas there is a Bagnall from 1916; 

 

I think it might be the other way around.  There is a preserved 1923 Bagnall and a preserved 1916 Barclay, which I think is this one:

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

Yes, the dates got switched round in my mind between reading the Wikipedia page and writing my post.

 

Now, there's another yellow wagon...

[Edwardian]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

Yes, the dates got switched round in my mind between reading the Wikipedia page and writing my post.

 

Now, there's another yellow wagon...

 

Nice 1880s open from very close to where I grew up.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

"Painted in the colours of" - hum. But certainly an interesting survivor. If the build date is known, presumably the builder too? I can't see any buildre's plate. It's been given oil axleboxes and, I think, replacement long buffer guides - no great surprise. I expect there are brakes on the other side too. There are sheet tie rings along the solebar. 

 

And there's a bolt missing.

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"Painted in the colours of" - hum. But certainly an interesting survivor. If the build date is known, presumably the builder too? I can't see any buildre's plate. It's been given oil axleboxes and, I think, replacement long buffer guides - no great surprise. I expect there are brakes on the other side too. There are sheet tie rings along the solebar. 

 

And there's a bolt missing.

 

LMS oil axleboxes, no less. But the overall size and appearance of the wagon seems congruent with the claimed 1880s area, though could equally be later.   

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

the overall size and appearance of the wagon seems congruent with the claimed 1880s area, though could equally be later.   

 

The position of the spring shoe relative to the tail of the headstock bolt is right for a wagon 15 ft over headstocks, assuming 9 ft wheelbase. So it corresponds to the RCH 1887 specification - which doesn't mean it wasn't built earlier. 

 

Eyeballing it further, I think 12" headstocks and 5" curb rail, with 9" side-sheeting (another tell-tale for "early") giving 3'6" depth. Those end planks are the restorers' - they couldn't get planed timber of large enough size - settled for swan timber slightly under - and couldn't find their chamfering plane.

 

If that was a model I'd be getting really het up but when it comes to survivals in preservation one is just grateful for what one has.