Colman's wagons, real and model

[Nearholmer]

Prompted by the rather sad news that mustard is moving out of Norwich (which news has its own thread), what do we know about prototype and model wagons in Colman's livery?

 

I've got an 0 gauge tinplate van in Colman's Starch (no, not mustard) yellow livery, but have no idea whether it has roots in reality or fantasy.

 

What wagons did they actually operate?

 

And, what toys and models have been made?

 

Kevin

[Mark Saunders]

There is one of their vans preserved at one of the Norfolk lines, they lasted on the mainline till after nationalisation!

 

Mark Saunders

[Nearholmer]

I’ve seen the wagon, but wasn’t sure whether or not it was ‘real’.

[Kris]

Colmans wagons have been made in N gauge. Peco have done both open (for coal) and Vans with the Colmans livery. 

[brianusa]

Don't forget the Hornby Mustard van that only survived one year, 1923.  Its a favourite of revivalists in many scales.

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, these vehicles have been firm favourites in tinplate, although I have to say that I didn't know that the Hornby one only lasted a year.

 

The van has been produced in tin by Carette (Gauges 1 and 0) pre-WW1, Hornby in 0, then, much more recently Ace/Horton (I think, although it might be Darstaed/Horton) in 0. The open has only recently been made for WJV/Raylo by ETS, I think.

 

A quick google identifies a modern Hornby 00 model of the open, and I seem to remember either the van or the open in the Peco 00 Wonderful Wagons series.

 

There must be more models.

 

But, what about the real ones?

Edited January 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

And, here is a pre-WW1 starch (not mustard) van from Carette https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10023/lot-227e1d84-9cb6-4303-baaf-a3ff00c47d9c

[Dava]

Is there any information on their loco fleet? Were they painted yellow too? If so this could be another livery option for the Hornby Peckett. The Colmans Peckett was the even smaller 'Yorktown' class, but they may have had other locos. Anyone with 'Industrial locos of East Anglia' which I don't, will be able to advise this!

 

Dava

[brianusa]

http://ctis-ltd.co.uk/colmans-wagon/

[Steamport Southport]

The van on the North Norfolk Railway is authentic. There was an article on it in an early Steam Railway. Donated by Colman's themselves ISTR.

 

Number 53 according to their website. http://www.nnrailway.co.uk/page.php?pid=15

 

More details from the Vintage Carriages Trust. http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9866

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

The real mustard van(s) - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/friendsofholt/html/station_history.html - built by Harrison & Camm, 1908

 

However, no sign on the internet of any coal wagons in Colman's livery, although the concept does seem decidedly plausible.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

And, here is a pre-WW1 starch (not mustard) van from Carette https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/special-auction-services/catalogue-id-srspe10023/lot-227e1d84-9cb6-4303-baaf-a3ff00c47d9c

 

That says number 52 and the preserved one is apparently number 53. So they are probably correct numbers.

 

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

Interesting!

 

But, this mustard one has the same number https://www.stopthedropauction.com/12059_Rare-Carette-Gauge-One-Colmans-Mustard-Private-Owner-Van.html

 

Carette was based in Germany, so was probably working from a photo, plus livery notes provided from GB. It's known from very early railway modelling magazines that his work for Bassett Lowke would be 'approved for production', by a sample being sent over. The art-work for a lot of the wagons he made was supplied by Henry Greenly, so it might be that HG or WJBL spotted an article about the prototype in magazine, and shot that, plus a pot of mustard, across to Carette.

 

Notice the price this one fetched ...... the originals are rather sought-after!

 

K

Edited January 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Steamport Southport]

The real mustard van(s) - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/friendsofholt/html/station_history.html - built by Harrison & Camm, 1908

 

However, no sign on the internet of any coal wagons in Colman's livery, although the concept does seem decidedly plausible.

 

Jim

 

POW Sides make them as kits so I reckon they are authentic. Apparently Gloucester C & W Co, 1923 RCH 7-plank, side & end door.

 

 

http://www.powsides.co.uk/www.powsides.co.uk/info.php?p=5&pid=794177&ack=9

 

Details in Private Owner Wagons : A First Collection by Keith Turton

 

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/book_extra.php?ref=L9129

 

 

I haven't got that book just going from the PO Wagon database.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited January 7, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Nearholmer]

Well, these are interesting.

 

The one with 'posters' on the vans is from 1896, presumably before they had their own fleet.

 

The NCC one is printed back to front ..... look at the loco number!

Edited January 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[teaky]

Palitoy Mainline did one of their standard 7-plank wagons in yellow Colman's livery.

 

A quick search brought up this example.

[teaky]

And Hornby.

[Compound2632]

Fascinating. I've had a sideline in food-related wagons. Huntley & Palmers had wagons for coal but their biscuits went out in company-owned vehicles - sheeted opens and covered vans - despite what the tinplate manufacturers and their successors would have you believe. Cadbury's had open wagons for coal and covered vans but the latter seem to have been internal user only, whereas these Coleman's vans seem to have been used on the main line. Any idea what the story is here? I can understand wanting to ship bagged starch in covered vans rather than sheeted opens; was it a case of the Great Eastern (and M&GN?) being unable or unwilling to supply vans? (Compare the well-known Spillers v GWR case.)

 

In the first of Nearholmer's photos, are those sheeted Great Eastern cattle wagons?

 

I wouldn't rely on POWSides for the wagon identification - they are apt to choose the nearest match from the limited range of PO wagon kits around, although the general style suggests a relatively late date. Anyone with the Turton volume able to comment?

[Nearholmer]

One thing to be wary of, and I have no real idea whether or not this applies to the Colman's vans, I think not, is that some of the very few "billboard" vans in GB were exactly that: ordinary railway company wagons, painted-up as a mobile advert, rather than being PO vans reserved for their owners' products.

 

Anyway, looking at the use of tarpaulins, whatever Colman were consigning, they wanted it kept dry. The company had its roots in milling, so it may be that, like Spillers, their real concern was flour, with the chance being taken to advertise the higher profit products, mustard and prepared starch. I'm certainly struggling to envisage the nation needing enough mustard to merit a fleet of vans ...... I'm tempted to make some sort of estimate of mustard consumption per capita etc, but had better not!

[PaulG]

Not sure of copyright owner but manufacturers image of 7-plank and van.

 

 

 

[PatB]

 I'm certainly struggling to envisage the nation needing enough mustard to merit a fleet of vans ...... I'm tempted to make some sort of estimate of mustard consumption per capita etc, but had better not!

 

Certainly prior to the modern hipster obsession with wasabi. Which sounds terribly exotic and Japanese but which, to me, tastes suspiciously like Colmans Hot English .

[Fat Controller]

One thing to be wary of, and I have no real idea whether or not this applies to the Colman's vans, I think not, is that some of the very few "billboard" vans in GB were exactly that: ordinary railway company wagons, painted-up as a mobile advert, rather than being PO vans reserved for their owners' products.

 

Anyway, looking at the use of tarpaulins, whatever Colman were consigning, they wanted it kept dry. The company had its roots in milling, so it may be that, like Spillers, their real concern was flour, with the chance being taken to advertise the higher profit products, mustard and prepared starch. I'm certainly struggling to envisage the nation needing enough mustard to merit a fleet of vans ...... I'm tempted to make some sort of estimate of mustard consumption per capita etc, but had better not!

One of the directors of Colmans once said their money came, not out of the amount of mustard that was eaten, but the amount that was left on the side of the plate.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Fat Controller

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant pictures Paul.

 

Interesting that the open doesn’t have differently coloured washer plates (aka strapping), which a number of models of it seem to have. And, the artwork on the vans made by Carette is so accurate that one wonders if someone (Greenly?) copy direct from Colman for them to use. Good advertising!

[Compound2632]

Not sure of copyright owner but manufacturers image of 7-plank and van.

 

Date? The wagon, although photographed by the Gloucester C&W Co., doesn't look like one of their products or an RCH 1923 standard wagon. It's perhaps one that's been repaired and repainted by them. The two look as if they originally came from the same builder - Steamport Southport has pointed us to the VCT database identifying this as Harrison & Camm of Rotherham - the frames and running-gear look very similar; those Ellis 10A-type grease axleboxes look to be of a distinctive pattern which matches this Paul Bartlett photo. Both the train photo and the works photo of the van have an 'early' feel to them which would agree with the 1908 build date. I suspect that the photo of the wagon is much later - 20s or early 30s - and is a later livery style and that these would originally have been lettered in a style similar to the vans, at least for the word 'Coleman's' - I doubt they'd have put 'Mustard Traffic' on! This wagon, No. 35, is clearly not the source for the RTR models in yellow with red ironwork, though the lettering style is similar - there must be at least one other photo about, of No. 19, though there's disagreement as to whether its end-door or not - the former is Hornby's 'toy' tipping wagon, so I think the livery choice has been made to appeal to the young at heart. There has also been a Dapol model of No. 35, in a very anemic cream, rather shoddy printing, and on their 10' wheelbase steel underframe. A bit more research into packaging might reveal when the different styles of lettering were current. I do wonder where Coleman's got their coal, though - North Warwickshire coalfield perhaps? And thence to Norwich via the M&GN? What does that Empty to inscription on the label plate say?

 

On the BBC website, the train photo is captioned: The move to Carrow Works meant mustard seed could easily be brought in by train. So presumably the wagons are for bagged seed in, rather than finished mustard out. The mustard seed presumably came in by ship from India (as was, if readers will excuse my use of the term historically, with no current political opinion implied; India and Pakistan being the current principal producers, according to Wikipedia). The inference is that these wagons worked in block trains from port to factory so, like banana vans, you can't have one on your layout - either none or many. Which port?

 

The "Coleman's Mustard Traffic" branding has me fantasising a similar van more appropriate to my Birmingham area interests, "Bird's Custard Traffic" - with red, yellow and blue bands, more shocking than this old Lima toy. I'm still frustrated that there's no evidence that Lea & Perrins, of 3 Midland Road, Worcester, owned any wagons...

Edited January 13, 2018 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/mint-and-mustard-growers-will-preserve-historic-supply-lines-to-colman-s-1-5343491

 

But, Colman’s use English mustard seed, some, perhaps significantly, from West Norfolk.

 

Maybe these vans carried sacks of grain and seed inward, and flour and/or packed mustard powder and starch outward?

 

The tinplate revival suppliers are very big on branded food vans, nearly all fictional, my favourite being Marsh & Baxter’s sausages, with a grim advert being used as the basis for the livery. It shows a porker pulling a little trailer, on which is a packet of bangers, and underneath their slogan “drawing his own conclusion”.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Nearholmer