Colman's wagons, real and model

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Indeed he can – after a bit of ferreting around I have found the relevant details. The van was part of a batch (J&J Colman nos 41-59, GER reg 4796-4814) built by Harrison & Camm and registered in December 1908.

 

Point to Mr. Watling.

 

With the vans numbered 41-59 and the two known coal wagons 19 and 35 of visibly the same Harrison & Camm batch, one can tentatively infer that Colman's had ten or twelve wagons dating from before 1904 (depending on whether one postulates the grain wagons being numbered before or after the covered wagons). I'd put my money on those being coal wagons.

[wagonman]

Colmans' wagons numbered 35-39 were 12-ton coal wagons but built by Hurst Nelson in September 1908. The register gives them GER nos 80-83 – marked in red. I'm not yet familiar enough with GER matters to understand the significance of this!

 

Wagon no 40 (GER 4702 of 17/9/1908) was a sample van supplied by Harrison & Camm.

 

I haven't found any of the earlier wagons as yet.

 

 

 

[wagonman]

Well, I've found a few:

 

A solo wagon, no.11, was a 10-tonner built by "Met Amal R C & W Co" in October 1904 and given GER restoration no.3926

 

Nos.15-34 built Hurst Nelson Feb 1907 and registered by GER, nos.8-27. They were rated 12-tons so I am assuming the GER, like the GWR, had separate number series for different capacity wagons, though unlike the GWR they lumped them all into the same book. Several of these entries have later annotations stating that they were withdrawn from main line service in the mid '30s.

 

I'll spend a bit more time scouring the GER register but if I'm looking for individual wagons it may take a bit longer. Can I assume there was nothing later than 1908?

 

 

Richard

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I'll spend a bit more time scouring the GER register but if I'm looking for individual wagons it may take a bit longer. Can I assume there was nothing later than 1908?

 

Mr Watling says 49 wagons bought 1904-1911, 27 coal, 20 vans, and two for grain. 

 

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

Colmans' wagons numbered 35-39 were 12-ton coal wagons but built by Hurst Nelson in September 1908. The register gives them GER nos 80-83 – marked in red. I'm not yet familiar enough with GER matters to understand the significance of this!

 

9 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Nos.15-34 built Hurst Nelson Feb 1907 and registered by GER, nos.8-27. They were rated 12-tons so I am assuming the GER, like the GWR, had separate number series for different capacity wagons, though unlike the GWR they lumped them all into the same book. Several of these entries have later annotations stating that they were withdrawn from main line service in the mid '30s.

 

Well I'll go to the back of the class. I'd been sure that the coal wagons were also Harrison Camm as the axleboxes and builder's plates looked the same as on the van. Reposting:

 

Compare:

 

The photo of No. 39 shows that at some stage there was a maintenance contract with Gloucester, including re-painting. But now that these are known to be Hurst, Nelson products, it's clear that No. 19 is in their photographic livery and almost certainly didn't go into traffic with the ironwork picked out in red, grey, or whatever colour you think that is. Sorry, Messrs. Hornby:

(also Peco in N). Interestingly Scottish-looking wagon that, anyway, even if the spring hangers, vacuum brakes, and axleguard keeper plates have one scratching one's head! They've given it a Gloucester builder's plate and the number of the wagon photographed by Gloucester... All rather confusing, really.

 

Back to the real thing, it would seem that Colmans were up to the minute with the latest 12 ton coal wagons, among the first to be registered by the GER. But why did they have end door wagons? Was there an end tipping facility in their factory.

 

Re. the van photo, I see no sign of a fleet number.

 

 

 

[wagonman]

To answer my own question: no I can't.

 

Colman's wagons nos.13 and 14, built Sept 1911 by the Met etc and given GER reg plates 5298-9, were recorded as 10-ton Grain Wagons.

 

Looking back through this thread to the photo of the string of Colman's vans, the odd one out with the darker roof must be no.40, the sample wagon delivered 3 months earlier. If roofs darken that quickly the photo must have been taken soon after delivery – presumably milking the investment for all its publicity value.

 

Stephen's reply has just arrived so 27 coal, 20 vans and 2 grain bought between 1904 and 1911. Looks like I've found them all – except no.12 which must be another coal wagon, probably a 10-tonner built by Met etc.

 

But why was no.35 photographed by Gloucester, and when? I note it has brakes both sides...

 

I think I'll rest from my labours...

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by wagonman

[wagonman]

Me again. I've found no.12: built by Met, reg GER 4093 in October 1904. 10-ton coal wagon with the entry annotated "Built to new specification  Height of lowered door from rail level". Make of that what you will.

 

 

[Edwardian]

I have been corresponding with a very nice lady at Unilever. Unfortunately, she has been unable to find any specific documents relating to the Colman’s trains and their purchase/hire.

 

It sounds as if Richard might usefully collate a document to add to the Unilever archives!

 

She did tell me the following, which sheds some light on the nature of the outgoing produce:

 

In 1854 Colman’s decided to move the business to Carrow in Norwich, to land bought from the Norfolk Railway Company. This site had a good supply of labour, and trading links with Yarmouth and London thanks to the nearby river and railway.  The move to Carrow began in 1854, and was completed in 1862.

 

At Stoke, mustard powder had been packaged in wooden casks, weighing between 9 and 144lb, and sent to grocers who would then sell the powder on to customers in paper bags. However, after the move to Carrow the powder was individually packaged, as the bright yellow labels and decorated containers were introduced. A tin workshop was opened at the Carrow site in 1856, and by the late 1880s 25 different sizes of container were produced - this included the penny oval tins and the pictorial tins.

 

So, the move to the rail-connected Carrow Works coincides with the move to tinned mustard.

 

She also gave me links to download some photographs. We are already familiar with most of them, but the caption to this photograph is interesting. Unilever's archive list this as a picture of "Colman's Mustard trains. One of three dispatched from Carrow Sept. 23 1896"

 

So, apparently, this is outgoing mustard traffic.

 

 

 

Given the location and the direction the train is pointing (looking across open country in the general direction of the Crown Point estate and the site of the 1886 and 1911 showground) I suppose it should be obvious that it's outbound traffic.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

this included the penny oval tins

Handy for mustard-sniffers to keep in their waistcoat pocket, presumably.