keen systems close coupler

[ianw1993]

hi, so basically i'm thinking about trying close coupling on my coaching stock and am tempted by the keen systems close coupler but before I ''take the plunge'' I'd like to know if they are especially difficult or easy to fit and use.

 

any help much appreciated

 

Ian

[Bernard Lamb]

How long is a piece of string?

It depends on the coach that you want to fit with the Keen coupling.

You need adequate depth and width under the floor and between the solebars to ensure that the plate of the Keen coupling will simply drop into place. RTR coaches vary enormously in this area, as I know to my cost. If the recess is too narrow or too shallow you will have to cut down the coupling plate or cut a hole in the coach floor. That's when things get messy. I would sugest that you try one and see how it fits with the coaches that you have. If it doesn't work out you won't have lost a lot of time or cash. Nowadays I would use the Hornby/Roco option. Even if it means making up new coupler boxes, easy enough to do from plastic strip.

Bernard

[RFS]

As Bernard suggests I'd buy just the one and experiment. But I'd also suggest you look at the Roco couplings too, especially if your coaches have NEM pockets. The Hornby-Roco version (R8220) works very well with the Bachmann MK1s (although it's advisable to file a "flat" on the solebar to stop the coupling rubbing against it), and the real Roco ones (sold by Keen Systems at £1 per pair) work very well with the Hornby Maunsells.

 

Most RTR coaches today have an automatic mechanism to deal with tight curves and whatever coupling changes you make mustn't interfere with that or otherwise you can experience derailments. For example, I've coupled all my Maunsells with Roco internally within the sets (Kadees on the outer ends), but to ensure trouble-free running the sprung buffers need to be retracted.

[naugytrax]

It's worth fitting the Keen Systems units if you have older coaches. Here's some that I've done:

Hornby 57' GWR coaches (R429/R430 and similar); easy

Airfix/Dapol GWR Centenary coaches; easy

Replica Mk1 FO and BG; easy

On all the above you need to cut one end of the bogies to make room for the vertical part of the coupler arm.

Bachmann Mk1 Suburban (non-corridor) coaches; easy. Recent Bachmann B1 bogies have a removable cutout (so that they can be used on the Mk1 corridor coaches, which come fitted with close-couplers) which makes them even easier to do.

Hornby R223/R233 Pullmans; tricky, because the floor must be cut out at the outer ends.

Lima Mk1 SK; also tricky, the floor must be cut out above both axles (but the inner cutout may have just been needed because I replaced the under-nourished bogies and wheels with full-sized Bachmann ones).

 

As an alternative, on Kitmaster Blue Pullman, Bachmann Bullied coaches and Mainline/Bachmann 61' GWR coaches I fitted Fleischmann 6574 retrofit boxes and heads. These were less successful because the Fleischmann geometry provides less extension per degree of deflection from the central position. On the BP and the Bullieds I had to cut holes in the floors. On the 61 footers I was able to get away with trimming the backs of the boxes.

 

If you have modern models which are already fitted with close-coupling arms, then I agree that nothing is gained by replacing them with Keen Systems boxes and arms, although the sprung arms on Bachmann Mk1 and Mk2 corridor coaches are mis-dimensioned and can usefully be replaced by the arms sold by Keen Systems for that purpose.

[Mr Lizard]

I've been looking into these as well. I'd like to fit them to a rake of Kitmaster Mk1s I'm currently refurbishing. I was wondering if anybody else had tried fitting them to this particular type of coach, and if so do they slot right in or will I have to cut a hole in the floor?

[ianw1993]

thanks, thats very useful seeing as most of the stock i'm looking to convert is the old Hornby stanier coaches. Would they be as straight forward to fit to Hornby mk1 stock as i have seen no mention of these on the website.

 

thanks, Ian

[Adrian Wintle]

thanks, thats very useful seeing as most of the stock i'm looking to convert is the old Hornby stanier coaches. Would they be as straight forward to fit to Hornby mk1 stock as i have seen no mention of these on the website.

 

thanks, Ian

 

The Keen system was very obviously designed around the old Hornby 'common underframe' coaches (GWR Colletts, SR Maunsells, LMS Staniers), and is trivial to fit to them - clean up the moulded pipework, drop in the unit, modify the bogie.

 

There are all sorts of applications shown on the Keen Systems website.

 

Adrian

[Jack]

I won't repeat myself, but here is my review of the Keen systems I fitted to my Bachmann Mk.1 & Mk.2 carriages ...

[naugytrax]

I haven't actually run either the Kitmaster or the Hornby Mk1's with Keen Systems close-couplers, but I have just offered the parts together to see if they fit.

 

The Kitmaster Mk1's should be doable. The solebars are far enough apart that only a small amount of material needs removing from the sides of the Keen baseplate before it will fit between. However, the Kitmaster floors are a bit low and so the wheels will not clear the baseplate unless it is recessed into the floor so yes, I think you'd have to cut a hole in the floor.

 

I disassembled a Hornby Mk1 CK, R445. Because of the way this coach fits together, if you cut a hole big enough for the Keen baseplate (even if you narrowed the baseplate to the absolute minimum) not only would the chassis be very weak - and the alignment of the coach ends depends on the strength of the vertical angle at the ends of the floor moulding - but you wouldn't be able to get the coach sides back into the slots on top of the floor. Other Hornby Mk1's may use a different assembly system (this has not been my favourite brand in the past and I don't know much about their older products) but this one would certainly be a serious challenge and personally I wouldn't bother.

[Mr Lizard]

The Kitmaster Mk1's should be doable. The solebars are far enough apart that only a small amount of material needs removing from the sides of the Keen baseplate before it will fit between. However, the Kitmaster floors are a bit low and so the wheels will not clear the baseplate unless it is recessed into the floor so yes, I think you'd have to cut a hole in the floor.

 

That's great, thanks for the information. Any chance you could post the dimensions of the baseplate? Looks like installation won't be quite as simple as I'd hoped but I think I'll give it a shot anyway.

[Adrian Wintle]

That's great, thanks for the information. Any chance you could post the dimensions of the baseplate? Looks like installation won't be quite as simple as I'd hoped but I think I'll give it a shot anyway.

 

I don't have one handy to measure, but...

 

If you have an old Hornby common underframe coach (GWR Collett/SR Maunsell/LMS Stanier/Thomas express coach), the baseplate fits in the gap between the solebars, extending from the bufferbeam to the bolster. It can lose about 1.5mm off each side, and about 2mm off the front (bufferbeam) end without affecting its performance if you need to fit it in a smaller area.

 

Adrian

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Ian.

 

I am going to use these units on a current conversion I am doing on an Airfix Stanier. I have so far only altered the bogies, but feel free to look in on my thread. I'll hopefully be fitting the actual coupling units over the next few weeks, there's also some discussion on there about altering the units to accept the Hornby close couplers.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[nightstar.train]

I've used these on Hornby Mk4s and think they are very good. One thing i would advise is to sand the swivel plate thinner. This will let it swing easier and is better for lighter coaches, or if you want to add self centering.

[2ManySpams]

Has anyone used the Keen units on a Southern Pride chassis?