your eras ready reckoner

[rovex]

As I am somewhat bored at work and taking inspiration from Ron Ron Ron post in the Hornby announcement thread, I have made a start with a schematic showing how certain eras overlapped. At present it is extremely limited which is where I need my fellow RMwebbers assistance in adding information.

 

I think its fairly self explanatory so far - each period will have its own colour and the tab will have a name and start and end dates. So future entries could be diesel era - and would start with the introduction of the first diesel trains. Green diesel era, blue diesel era, crimson and cream coaches, maroon coaches, reversion to pre nationalization era. 

 

I'm hoping that I should just be able to add these by amending this original post and the attachment.

 

Hope people think this will be useful as it develops

 

Rovex

 

Here goes

 

eras.pdf

 

further edited to add some BR liveries

Edited January 12, 2018 by rovex

[jim.snowdon]

And then there is the first Modernisation, around 1955-57 when diesels started to appear in numbers, then the 1964 Modernisation, which marked the start of the blue-grey era, which meant you could have blue and grey Mark 1s behind steam locomotives, mixed in with stock that migth be in crimson, or even brown and cream. 1964-ish also marked the fairly rapid disappearance of a lot of older coaching and goods stock, especially the pre-grouping types. Then, there is the fuzziness of the changes at Grouping and Nationalisation, as the old railways' identity didn't suddenly just disappear. Pre-Privatisation, there was BR's Sectorisation, which led to more liveries, all intermixed with the BR Modernisation livery.

 

Jim

[rovex]

I think that's the point that hopefully people will take from this. No-one can state with absolute certainty when the last maroon coach disappeared but we can say when BR was painting coaches in that colour. People then have to use a bit of common sense.

 

I think before I start adding entries I need a start date and an end date - but as I've just said this wouldn't be when all those things disappeared (unless that actually was the case - like the end of steam) but when things stopped being outshopped in a particular livery

 

Rovex

Edited January 11, 2018 by rovex

[jim.snowdon]

There are modellers, perhaps more so in the larger scales, who still seem to think that you can't run a GWR loco after January 1948, or that if you have an LNER loco you need LNER stock to go behind it, and that if you model an LMS station, you need LMS goods stock to populate it. The more enlightened modellers don't need telling that, but then they probably already appreciate the periods of railway history.

 

Jim

[rovex]

There are modellers, perhaps more so in the larger scales, who still seem to think that you can't run a GWR loco after January 1948, or that if you have an LNER loco you need LNER stock to go behind it, and that if you model an LMS station, you need LMS goods stock to populate it. The more enlightened modellers don't need telling that, but then they probably already appreciate the periods of railway history.

 

Jim

Couldn't agree more

[Zomboid]

I've got a book which contains a photo of a class 33 (green ends) piloting a Bulleid pacific, and the first coach in the train is in blue/grey. Which you'd probably get a lot of abuse for if you tried to run such a formation in public.

[johnlambert]

There are modellers, perhaps more so in the larger scales, who still seem to think that you can't run a GWR loco after January 1948, or that if you have an LNER loco you need LNER stock to go behind it, and that if you model an LMS station, you need LMS goods stock to populate it. The more enlightened modellers don't need telling that, but then they probably already appreciate the periods of railway history.

 

Jim

I've seen a few photos of GW liveried locos on trains that mix GW and British Railways coach liveries and British Railways liveried (ex-GW) locos hauling mostly GW coaches.  It makes you realise that the railway couldn't repaint everything over night.

[Dunsignalling]

I think that's the point that hopefully people will take from this. No-one can state with absolute certainty when the last maroon coach disappeared but we can say when BR was painting coaches in that colour. People then have to use a bit of common sense.

 

I think before I start adding entries I need a start date and an end date - but as I've just said this wouldn't be when all those things disappeared (unless that actually was the case - like the end of steam) but when things stopped being outshopped in a particular livery

 

Rovex

IIRC when Airfix/GMR catalogued items, the description was something like "1957 and later" i.e. when the vehicle was introduced or first appeared in the livery portrayed. 

 

Quite wisely, I think, they shied away from stating final dates - should one cite when final examples were repainted or withdrawn, the point at which it began to disappear, or the point at which it became "rare"? If the last, how the heck do you define "rare" without reference to other factors such as regional variation?

 

As an example, it is safe to say that the number of coaches finished in BR crimson and cream peaked in 1956 when the maroon livery and others that superseded it were introduced. Those numbers would have begun to decline within months. Vehicles that had received it early-on would be coming due for repaints and vehicles allocated to prominent services would be updated for reasons of image. As to regional differences, numbers on the Southern Region had diminished considerably by the end of 1960. All SR-built corridor stock had reverted to green by the beginning of that year, with increasing inroads being made into the region's Mk.1 fleet. By contrast, crimson/cream remained relatively commonplace on the London Midland Region for another couple of years.

 

As with eras, we can stratify how commonly something was likely to be seen over time, e.g., for crimson/cream livery on the Southern Region.

1. Newly introduced, 1949 
2. Maximum fleet strength and ceased to be applied,1956
3. Noticeably and progressively in decline, 1958-1960
4. Sightings becoming rare, 1961
5. Extinct, 1963

However, if one has to overlay all that with regional or other variations, things start to become very cumbersome. 

 

John

Edited January 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[johnlambert]

Ideally I'd like to see catalogue or box end information that includes introduced and withdrawn/repainted/rebuilt dates for the item in the box.  This would be much easier than "Era 3" etc.

 

Although I suppose most of us eventally get to know what's right for our modelling projects.

[jonny777]

I wish you well with this, but I fear that you may be unwittingly opening a hornet's nest. 

 

For instance, if you scroll down to the 12th photo on this page - 

 

http://www.steverabone.com/RailwayPhotographs/cambrian_line_photographs.htm

 

You will find a photo of pannier tank 7428 with GWR lettering. The caption shows the photo was taken at Aberystwyth on Aug 1st 1961. 

[Chris M]

This topic always raises interesting discussion. It is certainly ok for Bullied pacifics and a number of London Midland steam locos to pull blue & grey coaches. The class 33 without yellow warning panel on blue & grey coaches has been discussed before; it seems that some class 33s received their yellow warning panels very late. These were supposed to be added to all diesels as soon as possible in 1962 but somehow the Southern Region didn't get them all done even by 1967. The Western region appears to have got all their main line diesels fitted with yellow panels before blue & grey coaches appeared. Photos suggest that coaches received blue & grey livery in large numbers quite quickly; there are many photos of trains in 67/68 with all blue & grey coaches but with the loco still in either green or maroon. Some coaches of course lingered on in maroon for many years after the new scheme was introduced. I love the periods when coaches of different liveries can be mixed in the same train. There is a great photo of a Warship on the Southern region around this era. The loco I think is green and the first three coaches are maroon, blue & grey and green.

[Castle]

There are modellers, perhaps more so in the larger scales, who still seem to think that you can't run a GWR loco after January 1948, or that if you have an LNER loco you need LNER stock to go behind it, and that if you model an LMS station, you need LMS goods stock to populate it. The more enlightened modellers don't need telling that, but then they probably already appreciate the periods of railway history.

 

Jim

Hi All,

 

This is why I selected the era that I model GWR / BR(W) cross over. Loosely from 1947 - 1955ish. This means all sorts of GWR, BR, and cross over liveries. I have even done one of my locos with a lined tender with no logo on it - I hadn’t seen it done before so I thought why not?! I have a photo of that loco in that condition. Earliest is my 2884 which is in late GWR, in the middle is BRITISH RAILWAYS in Egyptian Serif text and later still, black and silver gas turbines, blue Kings and others still in the Lion and Wheel. Other rolling stock is similar in GWR both full and debranded, transition and early BR blood and custard schemes.

 

All good fun as far as I can see and it also tells a really interesting bit of history!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited January 11, 2018 by Castle

[Dunsignalling]

I wish you well with this, but I fear that you may be unwittingly opening a hornet's nest. 

 

For instance, if you scroll down to the 12th photo on this page - 

 

http://www.steverabone.com/RailwayPhotographs/cambrian_line_photographs.htm

 

You will find a photo of pannier tank 7428 with GWR lettering. The caption shows the photo was taken at Aberystwyth on Aug 1st 1961. 

I agree, there is no universal truth to be identified in this because change was gradual and, in the case of liveries on all but front-line locos and stock, only done when necessary.

 

It was not uncommon for (especially) secondary coaches and NPCCS to pass from group liveries to BR maroon without having received crimson at all.  Significant numbers of ex-LSWR locos almost made it to the 1930s before receiving SR colours. A few T9s that were significantly modified in 1924/5 just had the new bits painted to match the rest

 

Entire fleets of modern (passenger) stock are generally re-liveried in a few months using vinyl overlays. It is easy to assume that past changes were also implemented quickly, which is definitely not the case.

 

John

Edited January 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Reorte]

Entire fleets of modern (passenger) stock are generally re-liveried in a few months using vinyl overlays. It is easy to assume that past changes were also implemented quickly, which is definitely not the case.

Even these days older liveries can hang around for a surprising length of time. There's a photo on the loco hauled on the Cumbrian coast line thread (near the start), a four coach train and three different liveries.

[Fat Controller]

This topic always raises interesting discussion. It is certainly ok for Bullied pacifics and a number of London Midland steam locos to pull blue & grey coaches. The class 33 without yellow warning panel on blue & grey coaches has been discussed before; it seems that some class 33s received their yellow warning panels very late. These were supposed to be added to all diesels as soon as possible in 1962 but somehow the Southern Region didn't get them all done even by 1967. The Western region appears to have got all their main line diesels fitted with yellow panels before blue & grey coaches appeared. Photos suggest that coaches received blue & grey livery in large numbers quite quickly; there are many photos of trains in 67/68 with all blue & grey coaches but with the loco still in either green or maroon. Some coaches of course lingered on in maroon for many years after the new scheme was introduced. I love the periods when coaches of different liveries can be mixed in the same train. There is a great photo of a Warship on the Southern region around this era. The loco I think is green and the first three coaches are maroon, blue & grey and green.

If that's the photo I'm thinking of (I think it's in 'Heyday of the Hydraulics'), not only are the coaches in three different liveries, but one is a Bulleid in green, coupled to which is a Mark 2 FK in green. As Glenda Slagg used to say 'You couldn't make it up'..

Others I've happened upon include a 1963 photo with a Mark 1 in chocolate and cream, fitted with B4 bogies.

[GreenGiraffe22]

To weigh in with Southern grouping, correct me if I'm wrong, let's see if what I've learnt in the past couple of years is correct...

 

From 1923, pregrouping locos built at Brighton, Ashford & Eastleigh had Bxxx Axxx & Exxx numbers.

 

1936(?) onwards for pregrouping locos, the numbers changed to 2xxx for Brighton, 1xxx for Ashford and they just removed the E for Eastleigh.

 

Then 1942(?) onwards saw the introduction of wartime black on locos, although, for example some of the newly built Merchant Navys were out-shopped in malachite

 

Then more locos started turning malachite post war, but not all.

 

I *think* locos built under the Maunsell era had B, A & E prefixes on their numbers to begin with and then dropped from from 1936...

 

From 1938 carriages started being repainted from olive to malachite.

 

I can't remember when wagons started receiving a little SR instead of a bit SR.

 

of course some things stayed olive into BR days. So lots of cross over.

 

In the 20s there would have been lots of pre grouping and grouping cross over.

 

Did I miss anything?

[rovex]

Original post attachment edited to include a breakdown of BR era and introduction of BR coaching stock (not yet complete)

[PaulRhB]

I don't really see why we need eras when we have perfectly good years

What's the problem with noting during research what years a loco, coach, car etc was introduced, and where applicable withdrawn, in that condition and just including it in the product description?

1957 > (cars etc especially)

Or

1966-1980 etc etc

Surely the 6-8 extra digits on the box sticker too wouldn't hurt?

BR Steam etc as titles is usually pretty obvious when looking at a steam loco in BR livery.

It's especially useful when you see something and think oh that's nice I wonder if it will go with my layout. I usually then spend 5-10 minutes trying to get a signal to check the net!

[rovex]

Anyone know how to put links into an Excel Spreadsheet. I thought it might be useful on some of the tabs to link to external website sources.

 

Rovex

[rodent279]

How do you define "diesel era", though?

1947, when the LMS twins appeared? 1957/8 when the first Pilot Scheme locos appeared? Even earlier than that, the mid to late 1930's, when the first diesel shunters were starting to appear, the GWR railcars were in service etc?

[Steadfast]

I fully agree with the ideas of putting years active in that condition in the product description and on box ends.

Prime example, era 9 could cover both a Great Western (1996) HST and a GWR (2017) 800. The two never ran side by side, but era 9 suggests they may have done. There were 3 liveries in between them.

Anyone know how to put links into an Excel Spreadsheet. I thought it might be useful on some of the tabs to link to external website sources.

 

Rovex

In your internet browser, highlight the address at the top and right click on it and select copy.

Right click on your chosen Excel cell, then paste.

 

Jo

[rovex]

Thanks Jo. I was hoping to be a bit cleverer than that. My idea was to have you click on say "Mark 3" and it opened a link to information on Mark 3 coaches.

 

I can do it in word documents but the facility doesn't seem to be available in Excel

[Steadfast]

Ah righto, in that case that's got me stumped too!

Sorry!

 

Jo

[Dunsignalling]

Even these days older liveries can hang around for a surprising length of time. There's a photo on the loco hauled on the Cumbrian coast line thread (near the start), a four coach train and three different liveries.

True, if only until the end of the month, I understand.

 

However, whilst I have always thought of Mk2s as "modern", I doubt they still qualify as such.

 

John

[The Johnster]

All this is complicated, or perhaps simplified, by the very significant downturn in traffic in the immediate post-Beeching period.  Traffic was in decline for years, of course, but this time, say '63-65, was a sort of perfect storm of withdrawals of stock and scrapping/disposal of stock previously withdrawn by the introduction of dmus on many services, particularly non-gangwayed compartment stock including almost new mk 1 vehicles, in order to clear sidings for other use or land sale; slash and burn was the order of the day!

 

A new set for the 'Bristolian' was turned out in 1962 in choc/cream, which I believe was the first loco hauled stock to use B4 bogies (a Swindon design).  I am not sure whether or not the Swindon 4 car Inter-City dmus, later class 123, preceded them, but there wasn't much in it either way.  

 

Early vacuum braked and steam heated mk2 coaches which preceeded the blue and grey livery, all FKs AFAIK, appeared in late '64 on the Southern in malachite and the Western in lined maroon; of course, these had the new B4 bogie and featured '4 panel' ventilators.  I thought they were very attractive vehilcles, probably the last compartment stock.  The first appearance of blue/grey was on the experimental XP64 train, a development of mk 1s on B4s but not with the rounded ends of integrally constructed chassis-less bodies.  D1744 was done out in BR blue but with the double arrows in red panels below the cab side windows and the numbers behind the doors, syp, to go with it.

 

By the 1970s, the railway had changed quite dramatically from 2 decades earlier.  Loco hauled non gangwayed compartments survived on the ER only, though the format was alive and thriving on the Southern's 3rd rail.  A few lined maroon coaches could be seen up to around '73.  The mk 1 fleet divided into 'A' rated rakes, with B4 or Commonwealth bogies, cleared for 100mph running, and 'B', with the original B1 bogies and restricted to 75mph, used for reliefs, charter, and excursion work.  Very few pre-nationalisation designed vehicles were left, but these included the Gresley Buffets running with B stock on the WR.  In blue and grey.

 

There were no mk2 designs of catering or BG vehicles, and these were mk1s with B4 or Commonwealth bogie designs right up to the end of loco hauled expresses or until mk3 catering vehicles became available; these never ran in loco hauled sets on the WR, where mk3s were restricted to HST work.

 

As a rule of thumb, for WR purposes as I lack the erudition to make the definitive statement about other regions but I would suggest that the same general principles apply elsewhere, non gangwayed passenger stock was more or less finished by the end of 1962, in lined maroon or maybe some survivors in crimson.  Auto trailers lasted until 1964 in lined maroon, A38s being the only ones that survived to the end.  Of pre-nationalisation designs, only Stanier and the Gresley buffets survived to carry blue/grey corporate livery, with some Bullieds surviving the end of Southern steam in '66, but in malachite.  By early 1966, lyp were becoming common on diesel or electric locos, sometimes freshly painted on to dirty locos in service at sheds, and concurrent with ex-works locos in blue with syp.