Oxford announce 12T Tank Wagons

[31A]

I went and bought one this morning, from Monk Bar Model Shop in York.   Here are a couple of comparisons with Bachmann tank wagons.

 

The Oxford is on the left.  On the Bachmann one (5291), I have corrected the brake gear and shortened the headstocks, and added a representation of the bottom outlet valve.  The three behind were produced as a factory-weathered set for Hereford Model Centre - I still need to correct the brake gear on these.

 

 

 

The Oxford model next to Bachmann no. 1624.  This represents a different type of wagon, with retaining cables for the tank and no horizontal stay between the ends.  The tank has a larger filler.  The brake gear is correct, on this side!  It only has one Mobil logo.

 

 

As you can see the tank of the Oxford Rail one is smaller; as has been pointed out, it is a 12 ton tank whereas the Bachmann ones are 14 tonners.  The Oxford one is 18' over headstocks, with 10' 6" wheelbase.  The brake gear is very nicely modelled, with the push rods correctly orientated.  The other detailing (underframe members, retaining straps etc.) is all very finely done, even including the continuous drawbar.  The Mobil logo is to the right, on both sides.  There is a representation of a bottom valve in the middle underneath the tank, but not the pipes which would bring the fuel to the outsides of the solebars - easy enough to add.   The tension lock is mounted in a very neat little NEM pocket, but (as usual) protrudes a long way beyond the buffers.  The packaging includes two separate three link couplings!

[SP Steve]

48 minutes ago, 31A said:

The Oxford one is 18' over headstocks, with 10' 6" wheelbase.

 

Received mine today from Hattons - measurement of the tank diameter is 22.5mm which equates to a barrel measurement of 5' 7 1/2"

[hmrspaul]

20 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Photo from Flickr.

 

Mobil tanks of various ancestry lined up at Kings Cross. 

 

There is a photo that appears in many books of taken over the fence looking down into the loco yard showing various Mobil tank wagons being unloaded by siphoning, these are B tanks (black livery) but must have been A tanks earlier in life. I cannot find it on the interwebthingy.

Thanks Clive. That's the one I had in my mind but couldn't find. 

Why do you think they used to be class A?

The HMRS have a photo, also in the Tourret book (very cheap at the moment from Booklaw Publications) of a Vacuum oil tank with the Mobil 1955 badge either side of all the writing

 

Paul

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Thanks Clive. That's the one I had in my mind but couldn't find. 

Why do you think they used to be class A?

The HMRS have a photo, also in the Tourret book (very cheap at the moment from Booklaw Publications) of a Vacuum oil tank with the Mobil 1955 badge either side of all the writing

 

Paul

 

 

Hi Paul

 

Class B tanks pre the 1950s had bottom discharge pipes, with an operating valve handle next to the manhole cover.

 

Class A tanks didn't have bottom discharge pipes because the valves in the past were not reliable and would leak, this wasn't a problem products carried in B class tanks owing to their high flash point. So with no bottom drainage point the only way to remove the liquid was to siphon it out and A class tank wagons had a siphoning pipe next to the manhole cover.

 

The photo I referred to earlier where the tank wagons are being unloaded via siphoning is by T. B. Owen, the book I have found it in is "On Great Northern Lines" by Derek Huntriss. The same photo of 60067 Ladas at Kings Cross Bottom Shed has appeared in other books which I have, this was the first one I located it in.  It shows 3 black tank wagons of similar design* as the Oxford model, in the same Mobil livery. If they had been built as class B tanks they would have had bottom discharge valves and pipes. Many oil companies converted A class tank wagons to B class for products that did not require some type of lagging by just painting them black. 

 

* One of the wagons appears to have a wooden underframe, all three tanks are saddle mounted as per the model not cradle mounted as in the photo of the Vacuum Oil wagon in the Tourret book.

 

I still recall talking to you quite a few years ago at the HMRS building , Butterley, when you mentioned Mr Tourret hand drew his circles for the drawings in the book. Looking at them very closely I can see that, but they are very well done. A skill I do not possess. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

22 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Photo from Flickr.

 

Mobil tanks of various ancestry lined up at Kings Cross. 

c1964 I took this remarkably similar photo. I must have been standing a few feet further from the platform end.

No branding visible on the tanks but this is a blow-up of them.

[31A]

Quite a coincidence isn't it!

 

[Clive Mortimore]

22 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

c1964 I took this remarkably similar photo. I must have been standing a few feet further from the platform end.

No branding visible on the tanks but this is a blow-up of them.

Hi Eric,

 

Lovely photo, and two Type 3s in Passenger Loco, first time I seen a picture with two. Very strange that the make up of the trains in both photos look the same. I think your photo is slightly earlier. The other one shows the fourth storage tank, oxide in colour, where yours shows only the three original ones.

 

The rubbish I have stored in my head concerning Kings Cross in the early diesel days in the 30 year hope that I would build a model of it one day. Time, room, finance and that I have Sheffield Exchange to finish have put a halt to my dream. But no regrets as it was fun doing the research.

 

[hmrspaul]

34 minutes ago, 31A said:

Quite a coincidence isn't it!

 

No it was a normal place to photograph locos on the servicing depot, or coming off of them. There are a few on my site, but I don't have noticeable tank wagons in the background. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/babydeltic/e5b82ac74   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/class31/e5ba9b68a

The times I was there (which was from 10 years old onwards) there were photographers - it was a busy platform. 

 

Paul

[31A]

9 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

No it was a normal place to photograph locos on the servicing depot, or coming off of them. There are a few on my site, but I don't have noticeable tank wagons in the background. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/babydeltic/e5b82ac74   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/class31/e5ba9b68a

The times I was there (which was from 10 years old onwards) there were photographers - it was a busy platform. 

 

Paul

 

Yes indeed, I spent a lot of time there myself as well and am very familiar with the location.  I just thought it was a coincidence that they seem to have been taken at almost the same time.  See position of the two Brush 4s to the left of the shed.

 

[31A]

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Eric,

 

Lovely photo, and two Type 3s in Passenger Loco, first time I seen a picture with two. Very strange that the make up of the trains in both photos look the same. I think your photo is slightly earlier. The other one shows the fourth storage tank, oxide in colour, where yours shows only the three original ones.

 

The rubbish I have stored in my head concerning Kings Cross in the early diesel days in the 30 year hope that I would build a model of it one day. Time, room, finance and that I have Sheffield Exchange to finish have put a halt to my dream. But no regrets as it was fun doing the research.

 

 

Well spotted Clive.  I must admit I thought the two pictures were taken at almost the same time from slightly different angles, based on the two Brush 4s to the left of the shed.

[SP Steve]

Found the following Flickr image taken by John Law c1961 which shows Kings Cross as viewed from over the re-fuelling point:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5668737581/

 

There are clearly three Mobil tanks Nos 1657, 1624 and 1656 which are hooked up to the delivery system.

 

All three are saddle mounted tanks which would appear to date from before 1927 as the outlet control valve is inside the manhole.

 

The only difference to the Oxford one that I can make out is that there is a holed 'curb' rail running along the top of the sole bars, the diagonal stays would appear not to cross over at the sole bar fixing point and the Mobil logo is smaller as the retaining band does not cross over the logo as does the Oxford one.

 

There is a very similar looking vehicle in the second edition of  Tourret's "Tank Wagons of Britain" which depicts Asiatic Petroleum Co. Ltd. 14T Class A wagon 763 (Plate 503), built by the Midland Carriage & Wagon Co.

[31A]

2 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

Found the following Flickr image taken by John Law c1961 which shows Kings Cross as viewed from over the re-fuelling point:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5668737581/

 

There are clearly three Mobil tanks Nos 1657, 1624 and 1656 which are hooked up to the delivery system.

 

All three are saddle mounted tanks which would appear to date from before 1927 as the outlet control valve is inside the manhole.

 

The only difference to the Oxford one that I can make out is that there is a holed 'curb' rail running along the top of the sole bars, the diagonal stays would appear not to cross over at the sole bar fixing point and the Mobil logo is smaller as the retaining band does not cross over the logo as does the Oxford one.

 

There is a very similar looking vehicle in the second edition of  Tourret's "Tank Wagons of Britain" which depicts Asiatic Petroleum Co. Ltd. 14T Class A wagon 763 (Plate 503), built by the Midland Carriage & Wagon Co.

 

Ah thank you very much, Steve, well found - that does show the scene I had in mind!  In fact it's clearer than the photos I had in mind, which were taken from further to the left.  It does seem to have been taken at roughly the same time as the picture in "On Great Northern Lines" as the six plank Open High on the buffer stops also appears in both pictures.  Excellent!

[SP Steve]

Looking at the image again and with Clive's comments in mind re: discharging the tank contents then the shown wagons must be Class A as they are being siphoned rather than discharged via a bottom feed.

 

The top manhole contains the siphon feed and tank vent so the pre 1927 date still holds good as after this the manhole was made smaller in diameter so not enough room to contain everything.

[SP Steve]

28 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Ah thank you very much, Steve, well found - that does show the scene I had in mind!  In fact it's clearer than the photos I had in mind, which were taken from further to the left.  It does seem to have been taken at roughly the same time as the picture in "On Great Northern Lines" as the six plank Open High on the buffer stops also appears in both pictures.  Excellent!

 

Judging by the position of the open wagon adjacent to the door of the building and with its own door obviously open then it looks like it is performing as a 'dustbin'. First thoughts I had were for scrapped brake blocks and other scrap from minor repairs.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, SP Steve said:

Looking at the image again and with Clive's comments in mind re: discharging the tank contents then the shown wagons must be Class A as they are being siphoned rather than discharged via a bottom feed.

 

The top manhole contains the siphon feed and tank vent so the pre 1927 date still holds good as after this the manhole was made smaller in diameter so not enough room to contain everything.

Ex A tanks. Diesel is one B type product that does not require it to be lagged, steam heated or have fire tubes in its tanks as it is not very viscous but has a flash point higher than the maximum for it to be labeled an A class product. Thus older B tanks were ideal to carry it, as the Rolling Stones said "Paint it black".  Without cheeking the amount of petroleum products produced in the 1950s and 1960s but I understand there was an increase in the demand for diesel so it made sense to change the usage of some tank wagons. 

 

With the introduction of far more reliable valves and bottom discharge was possible with A tanks it was common to see both black and grey tanks in loco depots carrying diesel. As it is also a clean liquid it can be carried in both. Today with hazchem warnings there is no need for black or grey wagons to tell the staff ( and fire brigade)  what is in the tanks.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, SP Steve said:

 

Judging by the position of the open wagon adjacent to the door of the building and with its own door obviously open then it looks like it is performing as a 'dustbin'. First thoughts I had were for scrapped brake blocks and other scrap from minor repairs.

Agreed, probably didn't move for months or more. Very common to find dustbin open wagons at any larger depots - they were always good for finding an elderly wagon. 

Yes a lovely photo of KX. I believe siphoning of class B tanks was not unusual. Non of the rectangular tanks appear to have had bottom discharge and they were in use into the late 1960s - with the Croda Rotherham ones a lot later. Although there are a couple of books about tank wagons there are large gaps in knowledge. It was unfortunate that the RCH appears not to have listed what was around at Nationalisation (as it did for the other non pool privately owned wagons). With there being so much amalgamation and general change in ownership of the oil and shale oil companies what came into the fleet of any one company is difficult to follow. 

 

Paul

[it's-er]

I'm intrigued by these photos from Kings Cross.  Was diesel siphoned off the top of these tank wagons the main source of supply for class 3s, Deltics and whatever other diesel locomotives were serviced at Kings Cross?  In which case woud a new lot of tankers be needed every few hours?  

 

It seems a remarkably quaint way of supplying diesel in the quantity which must have been needed. Surely a case of the old railway struggling to keep up with the new?

 

I'm sure some of you will be able supply the answer - I'm amazed at the recollections and information appearing in the posts above.  Many thanks!

 

John Storey

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, it's-er said:

I'm intrigued by these photos from Kings Cross.  Was diesel siphoned off the top of these tank wagons the main source of supply for class 3s, Deltics and whatever other diesel locomotives were serviced at Kings Cross?  In which case woud a new lot of tankers be needed every few hours?  

 

It seems a remarkably quaint way of supplying diesel in the quantity which must have been needed. Surely a case of the old railway struggling to keep up with the new?

 

I'm sure some of you will be able supply the answer - I'm amazed at the recollections and information appearing in the posts above.  Many thanks!

 

John Storey

 

We perhaps over-estimate the amount of fuel used on a daily basis; even the big depots, such as Crewe Diesel, Canton or Bescot, would probably use only ten or so tankers worth per day. They would have storage tanks for rather more than that, to allow for an problems with deliveries; one of several storage tanks can be seen in the background of Clive's photo. There were other, horizontal, ones which are not visible in the photo.

[Dunsignalling]

Just had chance to unbox mine which arrived yesterday.

 

It certainly looks the part for a tanker of its size, though whether all the details stack up to make an exact model of a particular wagon is a subject for those with broader knowledge than mine. Suffice to say, it'll do me.   

 

Dunno if it's already been queried, but (before I paint them black) are the red headstocks right, wrong, or an indication that the wagon is reserved for a specific use?

 

Only criticism: the coupler pockets. They are too deep, allowing the couplers to droop - needs a 10 or 15 thou packing strip inserting below the coupler, then they are OK. Also, as a Kadee user, I notice they are shorter than the NEM standard so the coupler can slide in and out by a good couple of mm. The small tension locks fitted have clips to match, so if retaining them, it won't be an issue. I'm using the Kadee #18 with the clips shortened and will glue them in along with the necessary packing. Those who want to shunt round No.2 radius curves will need  the #19.

 

Impressive overall and I will buy more. I'll probably refinish this first one with Shell-BP markings, which will inevitably mean they announce one by the time the varnish has dried. 

 

John

 

 

[31A]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Dunno if it's already been queried, but (before I paint them black) are the red headstocks right, wrong, or an indication that the wagon is reserved for a specific use?

 

 

My first question on this thread, a few pages back, which was never answered!  My own feeling is that they have copied a preserved one and the red headstocks are a figment of the imagination of a heritage railway or museum.  But I have been unable to find a preserved "Mobil 64" by googling.  They are now black on my model!

 

Not much help to a Kadee user, but I managed to cut a bit off the NEM pockets to make them about 2mm shorter (despite them being already quite small) and fitted Bachmann short couplings (36-030 I think) which reduces the 'gap' a bit more.

[Cor-onGRT4]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Impressive overall and I will buy more. I'll probably refinish this first one with Shell-BP markings, which will inevitably mean they announce one by the time the varnish has dried. 

they already have

[Porcy Mane]

8 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

they already have

 

Sort of the Class B livery, like this:

 

https://flic.kr/p/QM5vQM

 

A 2027 was a reasonable match for the Oxford rail tank.

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Porcy Mane

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, it's-er said:

Was diesel siphoned off the top of these tank wagons the main source of supply for class 3s, Deltics and whatever other diesel locomotives were serviced at Kings Cross?  In which case woud a new lot of tankers be needed every few hours?  

The tanks at KX would be mainly for topping up locos on a lay-over between trains. They would have been filled at te main depots overnight.

By 1966 there were at least four large vertical tanks at the trackside.

The old 14T tanks could fill a Deltic's tanks three or four times over.

[SP Steve]

For those of a nervous disposition then look away now!

 

Having ordered two of the Mobil variant I've decided to rework one of them into a Charles Roberts 14T variant (RCH Drawing 97 of 1911) ordered by BP and numbered 971-1020.

 

The 10' 6" wheelbase chassis as provided would save half the job and modelling in EM should mean it would be a simple case of dropping in replacement wheel sets - as is common with most projects that 'should' be easy, it isn't!

 

The axle length as provided by Oxford comes in at 26.3mm and in situ there is a little slop but replace with Alan Gibson EM sets with their axle length of 25.8mm and it precludes any sense of free running as the side play is just to great. The axle diameters thankfully are the same (2.0mm) so a swap of wheels is one option or fitting brass bearings is another - either way it isn't a plug n play situation.

 

Dismantling of the model revealed the following:

a) the filling hatch / manhole cover was not glued and simply pulls out (it may have had glue applied but if so it wasn't successful).

b) the two retaining 'ropes' are made of blackened wire attached to plastic retainers which simply pulled out from their sockets on the rear of the solebar.

c) the tank is retained with two screws under the chassis (remove couplings to access) and the end stanchions between the tank retaining baulk and headstock can be levered out from the headstock.

d) the tank retaining bands are metal and are a clip fit into sockets at the rear of the solebars.

e) after completing step C the diagonal stays will prevent the tank removal. These are made of plastic and were loose at the baulk end but the ends behind the solebar appeared to have been glued so breaking the stays was the only option in order to get the tank off.

f) the buffer heads are metal but on mine were very loose. The buffer housing uses a square peg to locate in the headstock and were easy to lever off.

g) after removing the tank it would appear that the tank ends are a plug fit to allow fitting of metals weights but are then glued into position

h) the bottom tank discharge valve is a plug fir into the chassis assembly and was easily removed.

 

So there you have it - how to devalue your model wagon in one fell swoop!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Sort of the Class B livery, like this:

 

https://flic.kr/p/QM5vQM

 

A 2027 was a reasonable match for the Oxford rail tank.

 

Thanks, that's exactly what I have in mind,

 

I've got a sheet of Fox transfers in my stash that seems to include everything needed for that.

 

John