Strand and its trains

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

During a career in the motor industry I visited several OE paint suppliers in the UK and France. I learned that colour memory is never as good as we think it is, that colour fastness even on paints manufactured in the 80's and 90's was not as reliable as was wanted, although streets ahead of what it had been years before. This was at a time when research into paint production was increasingly scientific, unlike the pre-grouping era. Approved colour samples were always kept in light proof safes and production consistency for colour was always checked against these by the gentler sex, who apparently have better colour vision.

 

Add to that the difficulty of accurately reproducing colours in printed media, and you will understand why I believe that "definitions" of paint colours and reproductions of printed media cannot be really relied on to show us what a colour was really like, both when originally applied and after some time in service.

 

So, is it this colour pessimism that led to your preference for modelling the LNWR?

[Edwardian]

57 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

During a career in the motor industry I visited several OE paint suppliers in the UK and France. I learned that colour memory is never as good as we think it is, that colour fastness even on paints manufactured in the 80's and 90's was not as reliable as was wanted, although streets ahead of what it had been years before. This was at a time when research into paint production was increasingly scientific, unlike the pre-grouping era. Approved colour samples were always kept in light proof safes and production consistency for colour was always checked against these by the gentler sex, who apparently have better colour vision.

 

Add to that the difficulty of accurately reproducing colours in printed media, and you will understand why I believe that "definitions" of paint colours and reproductions of printed media cannot be really relied on to show us what a colour was really like, both when originally applied and after some time in service.

 

While I would agree with that, there is a consistency in the representation of SE&CR coaches as having a reddish cast, redder than the brown appearance of the 'true' colour.  There is no reason why colour reproductions couldn't have tended to show a browner shade, or is there?

 

I find it unhelpful to talk about livery colours in terms of descriptions given to paint colours. For instance, Guy cites this livery as 'purple lake'.  However, unless my colour perception is way off (which it might be for all I know), call it what you like and talk about blue content all you like, the overall impression is that of a shade of brown, however arrived at. What a colour is and how it looks, especially after many layers and rub downs and, especially, varnish, are two rather different things.

 

Whatever colour actually went into the SE&CR livery, in modern models, like Guy's and the Bachmann Birdcages, the overall impression is one of a shade of brown.  The contemporary colourists seem to be telling us that, whatever the precise shade, they saw it as a shade of red or reddish brown.

 

Could they have coloured and printed prints with a browner brown?  If so, why did they appear to choose a redder shade? If not, then Jol's explanation would seem to be a sufficient one. 

[Regularity]

The “lake” portion of the colour on East and West Junction Railway coaches is described variously in contemporaneous reports as being like the GWR, LNWR, and Midland shades of lake.

Perhaps that’s why, when the SMJR started to augment the coaching stock with purchases from the Midland, they moved to all-over crimson lake.

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, is it this colour pessimism that led to your preference for modelling the LNWR?

Stephen,

 

I prefer to think I suffer from colour realism rather than pessimism.

 

However, that wouldn't affect my decision as to which railway company to model. Although LNWR locomotives were painted in "drop black" and then varnished, they apparently then achieved a slight purple tinge following cleaning with oily rags - or so the story goes. PPP LNWR black has a definite purple element, although I paint my locos with "plain" black cellulose paint followed by satin varnish. I haven't tried the oily rag treatment yet.

 

The carriage and wagon colours are much more subject to debate. I was once shown a section of stripped back panelling on the LNWR Picnic Saloon when it was being restored at Quainton. The white had a definite blue tinge, while the lower section was dark brown. The description "plum and spilt milk" didn't seem to fit and how close the LNWR paints from PPP are I wouldn't know without holding a test panel of theirs against the Picnic Saloon panel. I think the Hornby  and the Hattons four wheel "generic" LNWR carriages have a livery that is well wide of the mark but can only demonstrate that by comparing photos I have taken of the twelve wheel carriages at Quainton. How accurate those are depends on the paint information to hand  and used when they were painted (the "formulae" are given in the HMRS LNWR Liveries book).

 

I think we can only evaluate colours from memory within quite wide margins. To demonstrate this  the automobile OE paint suppliers would  get someone to pick the colour of their own car from a range of colour swatches and then go out to check it against the real thing. Invariably they got it wrong. The view was that colour memory started to "fail" after about twenty minutes.

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

While I would agree with that, there is a consistency in the representation of SE&CR coaches as having a reddish cast, redder than the brown appearance of the 'true' colour.  There is no reason why colour reproductions couldn't have tended to show a browner shade, or is there?

 

I find it unhelpful to talk about livery colours in terms of descriptions given to paint colours. For instance, Guy cites this livery as 'purple lake'.  However, unless my colour perception is way off (which it might be for all I know), call it what you like and talk about blue content all you like, the overall impression is that of a shade of brown, however arrived at. What a colour is and how it looks, especially after many layers and rub downs and, especially, varnish, are two rather different things.

 

Whatever colour actually went into the SE&CR livery, in modern models, like Guy's and the Bachmann Birdcages, the overall impression is one of a shade of brown.  The contemporary colourists seem to be telling us that, whatever the precise shade, they saw it as a shade of red or reddish brown.

 

Could they have coloured and printed prints with a browner brown?  If so, why did they appear to choose a redder shade? If not, then Jol's explanation would seem to be a sufficient one. 

 

Regrettably I don't think that we can rely on colours in printed document to any great degree. They were probably painted from memory and unless the artist had actual colour samples of the item in question to hand, would be subject to some inaccuracy. How closely those paintings were reproduced with the print technology of the time adds another uncertainty.

 

I have tended to stick with the colours from the PPP range. They are supposedly based upon factual information, samples, etc. In my early days of modelling the LNWR I bought example of LNWR Carriage Lake from three different suppliers, PPP, Railmatch and another I can't recall. Two were a lighter brown (one was quite "muddy" and only the PPP version seemed to fit the description of coach lake/plum so I went  with that.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson
Amended text to read proper!

[Guy Rixon]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Thanks, Guy.  I'll track down your acrylic mix.

 

Not that I want to open a debate, but how do the cognoscenti reconcile the paint sample evidence with contemporary colour or coloured views?  These in my experience tend to be consistent in showing a red, rather than brown, cast to the lake. Are they assumed to be wrong?

 

For instance:

 

 

And two views given as c.1910:

 

 

 

First, what Jol said.

 

Second, the purple colour appears differently according to the incident light. This is true for modern versions of the colour, as on certain coaches of the Bluebell Railway, and for the models. It can appear very brown, very blue, or fairly red depending on the sunlight.

 

Third, I was at an SECR Soc meeting, at Keen House, when one of the paint samples was displayed. It was extremely purple and caused much surprise.

 

Finally, there is folklore that the colour evolved as the painting techniques changed. I wouldn't call it evidence, as I don't know where people got it from, but:

• there might have been a change in the quality of the painting (number of coats, etc.) after the Management Committee took over;
• there might have been a change to a different colour of paint, one that was inherently redder, c.1911;
• there was probably a major change somewhere between 1912 and 1915 where the top layers of varnish were left off, exposing the brown undercoat; the kit instructions describe this as leaving the blue out of the finish.

So there is at least a chance that the purple-brown colour, and the paint sample, is the post-1912 undercoat and is just wrong for 1905 or 1909, and that the postcard is correct. I doubt we shall ever know.

[Guy Rixon]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

While I would agree with that, there is a consistency in the representation of SE&CR coaches as having a reddish cast, redder than the brown appearance of the 'true' colour.  There is no reason why colour reproductions couldn't have tended to show a browner shade, or is there?

 

I find it unhelpful to talk about livery colours in terms of descriptions given to paint colours. For instance, Guy cites this livery as 'purple lake'.  However, unless my colour perception is way off (which it might be for all I know), call it what you like and talk about blue content all you like, the overall impression is that of a shade of brown, however arrived at. What a colour is and how it looks, especially after many layers and rub downs and, especially, varnish, are two rather different things.

 

Whatever colour actually went into the SE&CR livery, in modern models, like Guy's and the Bachmann Birdcages, the overall impression is one of a shade of brown.  The contemporary colourists seem to be telling us that, whatever the precise shade, they saw it as a shade of red or reddish brown.

 

Could they have coloured and printed prints with a browner brown?  If so, why did they appear to choose a redder shade? If not, then Jol's explanation would seem to be a sufficient one. 

I'm looking at a painting by my wife of a sunset on a beach. It was painted from a photo that she took. There are three versions of the colours: what I remember from that holiday back in 2008; what the camera recorded and what she painted. The memory and the painting are both more vivid than the photo.

 

In general, artists tend to paint colours that look appealing more often than they paint exact renditions. I like the purple lake, but the crimson lake of the MR is showier and more appealing to most. It makes for a nicer postcard.

 

It would also be interesting to know where the postcards were coloured. If the colourist was familiar with MR trains they might well have assumed that the SECR colour was the same.

 

...and I've just looked at my model in strong sunlight (it was overcast when I took the last photo). Much redder now, not the iPhone camera can capture that very well.

[Compound2632]

The varnish of the period...

 

15 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The white had a definite blue tinge, 

 

... is alleged to give a yellow tinge to white, so the blue in the paint would counteract that;

 

but on the other hand...

 

17 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

the lower section was dark brown. 

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

• there was probably a major change somewhere between 1912 and 1915 where the top layers of varnish were left off, exposing the brown undercoat; the kit instructions describe this as leaving the blue out of the finish.

 

... it's giving a blue hint to brown lake! (And black, for those LNWR engines.)

 

I'm not sure what the current thinking on this is but at least at the time the instructions for the Ratio LNWR carriages were prepared, the ends were said to be chocolate brown; this now sounds like unvarnished lake.

 

As for lighting, here's three photographs of Halfords red primer, which in my view is a good match for minium / red lead:

 

 

None of these are exactly the same as (or even very close to) what my eye sees, in any light - but the photoreceptors in my retina respond differently to the camera's CCD, both in compensating for light levels and colour balance. 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

That's interesting Guy, and I really don't want to create a fuss. 

 

The problem with the idea that colour memory is wrong is that the colour memory of every contemporary colourist whose work I've seen suggests they all had a similar impression of a reddish or crimson lake. Reviewing coloured postcards generally, although there is variation in interpretation, most company's coach liveries come out more or less as we might expect.  

 

Put another way, before the colour sample was produced, why did everyone think that the SE&CR was more crimson lake than purple-brown lake?

 

The brownest rendering I've managed to come across is the picture below (and, of course, my photograph adds its own filter of distortion). 

 

Incidentally, although labelled as a 'Dover Boat Express', it is clearly nothing of the kind; it's the Folkestone Car Train. 

 

 

I am relieved to hear that in certain lights your purple lake appears reddish, but disturbed by your final comment, and the thought that the whole re-interpretation of this livery is based upon a paint sample that might be post-Edwardian. I was all but prepared to go with the rather brown purple lake, but your comment evokes fresh doubt!

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Guy Rixon]

Just to add a little more fuel to the fire, here's part of the painting spec for a PBV bought by the SER in 1898.

 

"...another coat of lead colour, one of lake brown, two coats of best crimson lake, and one of best body varnish; ..."

 

And for a similar PBV bought by the SECR in 1899.

 

"...another coat of lead colour ... one coat of lake brown, and two coats of best crimson lake, after which ... one coat of best body varnish." This typed specification originally specified grained, imitation teak for the upper panels, but was amended in handwriting to the above colours for all the body.

 

So apart from the ephemeral silliness of mixed lake and teak livery, the spec. didn't change when the Management Committee first took control. Also, it definitely calls for crimson lake rather than purple, adding a quantum of support to the idea that the purple colour was the later brown without the lake coat. Damn.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Are the wagons in the background in SER/SECR red (red lead) or the later SECR grey?

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Are the wagons in the background in SER/SECR red (red lead) or the later SECR grey?

 

The birdcage passenger brake again seems to have a rather crimson lake. The round ended wagons are consistent with Wainwright good stock grey.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

The round ended wagons are consistent with Wainwright good stock grey.

 

Sorry, I should have checked: I had misremembered. Grey from the formation of the Management Committee, in succession to SER red. I was confusing this with a change to a darker grey in Maunsell's day. I'll stick to wagons from north of the river.

[Edwardian]

Here are another 3 coloured views of the Folkestone Car Train vehicles.  Now the first one is a cigarette card style painting, and is reddish I suppose, but looks a bit on the tan side, which seems to be no help to anyone!  The two postcard colourists below are certainly in lake territory, with the full train a little darker and more purple, perhaps, than the lower picture, yet not brown at all. You might see both as a crimson lake?

 

Here are the similar American-built Gilbert Cars, with their standard Wainwright type brake coaches forming the Hastings Car Train:

 

 

 

[wagonman]

Don’t take Edwardian era tinted postcards as a guide for anything. As the aboutcards.blogspot.com says: “The postcards began as a conventional black and white photograph and were painted by hand prior to production. In the early days the colouring took place in the photographers studio. As demand expanded factories were established employing large numbers of women to hand tint photographic images prior to postcard printing. The paints were oil based and transparent and their chemistry was such that many of the colourists were to suffer illness as a result of licking their brushes to form a point.”

 

The LPC might have taken a bit more trouble than most, but they were working with a limited palette.

[Edwardian]

Within those and other limitations, the postcards I've been looking show that some care has been taken to reflect the liveries of the companies concerned. 

 

I think we are in danger of confusing the need to treat this resource with care with rejecting it as having no value.

 

The postcards I've been looking at are reasonable approximations of the liveries concerned.  It seems odd, to me, to reject the consistent treatment of SE&CR coaches as having a reddish or crimson cast, rather than a dark purple-brown when the postcards get most verifiable liveries approximately right. 

[Compound2632]

Sorry, OT but out of curiosity: when did the SER stop painting upper panels cream?

[Regularity]

13 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The postcards I've been looking at are reasonable approximations of the liveries concerned.  It seems odd, to me, to reject the consistent treatment of SE&CR coaches as having a reddish or crimson cast, rather than a dark purple-brown when the postcards get most verifiable liveries approximately right.

That may be so, James, but there is always the possibility of the first colour postcard being the wrong hue/shade (possibly due to limitations of printing technology) and this error being perpetuated subsequently - just as we are advised not to model models.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 29/03/2021 at 14:52, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not sure what the current thinking on this is but at least at the time the instructions for the Ratio LNWR carriages were prepared, the ends were said to be chocolate brown; this now sounds like unvarnished lake.

 

The trouble with descriptions like chocolate brown is there are difference in colour between Dark Chocolate, Milk Chocolate and White Chocolate, not to mention Belgian Chocolate, Swiss Chocolate, French Chocolate etc.  Or so I'm told by by herself, who is of course the expert round here on chocolate. .

[Compound2632]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

The trouble with descriptions like chocolate brown is there are difference in colour between Dark Chocolate, Milk Chocolate and White Chocolate, not to mention Belgian Chocolate, Swiss Chocolate, French Chocolate etc.  Or so I'm told by by herself, who is of course the expert round here on chocolate. .

 

Now there's a thought - a LNWR or WCJS dining saloon in its proper colours, entirely constructed out of chocolate. Probably too late to order one for this Easter.

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Sorry, OT but out of curiosity: when did the SER stop painting upper panels cream?

 

Off hand I don't know, that's an old Victorian livery, from the days when different classes might have different liveries.  Many familiar standard company liveries only come in in the last quarter of the century, e.g. LSWR salmon and pink in the 1880s.  

 

For the purposes of this debate, Guy was citing an 'experimental' phase when the Joint Management Ctte diplomatically adopted SER crimson lake on the lower coach sides with LCDR varnished wood on the upper.  One can only imagine ... 

 

The material point seems to be this; that trial livery is given as using the same method of achieving lake as the SER and I don't think anyone has advanced evidence that this formula was changed with the varnished wood upper panel idea was dropped. If so, how do you get to the rather darker purple-brown lake ahead of the post-Edwardian change?

 

That dark purple-brown colour doesn't look like it results from two top coats of crimson lake.  

 

The postcards, on the other hand, reflect how you would expect this to appear:

 

"...another coat of lead colour ... one coat of lake brown, and two coats of best crimson lake, after which ... one coat of best body varnish."

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

That may be so, James, but there is always the possibility of the first colour postcard being the wrong hue/shade (possibly due to limitations of printing technology) and this error being perpetuated subsequently - just as we are advised not to model models.

 

I just fear we are descending to improbable assumptions in order to discount a body of (albeit very imperfect) evidence that tends to show SER/SE&CR coaches in a crimson lake. 

 

To me, the most obvious and likely explanation, that reconciles the available data, is that the paint sample that wowed the SE&CR society was a later sample after crimson had ceased to be applied. If I was forced to choose an assumption, that would be the one.  

[Michael Hodgson]

I believe you can make things out of chocolate if you've got a 3D printer

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I believe you can make things out of chocolate if you've got a 3D printer

 

I couldn't stare at chocolate for that long without eating it.

[Guy Rixon]

Just a thought: does anybody have the painting specifications for Edwardian MR coaches, or for the GWR coaches in their lake livery? There is a possibility that the number of crimson lake coats varies between the railways and this changed the appearance of a nominally-identical colour.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Just a thought: does anybody have the painting specifications for Edwardian MR coaches, 

 

R.E. Lacy, in Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) quotes an official specification of 1906:

• two coats of priming
• four coats of filling
• stopping
• rubbing
• staining
• rubbing
• coat of lead colour
• stopping up
• facing
• coat of lead colour
• coat of lake ground
• coat of lake crimson
• coat of lake and varnish
• mouldings painted black
• coat of varnish
• flatt down
• lining and all writing
• coat of body varnish
• flatt down
• coat of body varnish
• flatt down
• coat of body varnish

with two supplementary points

1. washing off after rubbing or flatting down to be done with cold clean water
2. when the linings, transfers, and letterings start to show signs of wear, the coach should be brought in for revarnishing.

Don't ask what any of those steps actually involved!

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I just fear we are descending to improbable assumptions in order to discount a body of (albeit very imperfect) evidence that tends to show SER/SE&CR coaches in a crimson lake. 

Whereas I fear that you are using “evidence” like a drunk using a lamppost: for support, not illumination.

I was simply offering a word of caution: we need to be circumspect about unreliable witnesses. You should be able to appreciate that.