1980s WCML - Mk3 Formation Guard / Train Staff Accomodation

[bill badger]

Google has not been helpful so far on this: where would the guard / crew accommodation be in WCML Mk3 rakes prior to the DVTs coming along?

 

For the Mk2 WCML / cross country rakes the obvious answer would be a BSO (and I understand these were used in the earlier days of Mk3 rakes)

 

I have many internet sourced pictures showing exclusively Mk3 rakes with a BG at the end but no sign of a Mk2 vehicle or other obvious 'train crew' accommodation. There weren't enough Mk3 BFOs to go round, so what did the guard do when not walking the aisles? Was the BG manned for the duration of the trip?

 

[rodent279]

Yes, usually they ran with either a mk1 BG, or a mk2 BSO, in which the guard lived when he/she was not doing ticket inspections etc.

[Pete the Elaner]

Weren't the Mk3 BFO's all Mk3B's, therefore built around the same time as the DVT's?

Mk1 BGs were usually used. I seem to remember reading that the 110mph services used specially maintained BGs coded NHA.

[woodenhead]

I only ever remember BGs with the Mk3 trains until the DVTs came along

[Flood]

The three Mk3B BFO coaches are covered in this post: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2556-coaching-stock-the-clansman-1986/?p=18989

 

Looking at the 1985 Passenger Train Marshalling Circular the Mk3 rakes have just an NEA (or 110 mph NHA) for the Liverpool and Glasgow trains. The Manchester trains have an approximate 50/50 split of either a BSO at one end and an NEA at the other or just a single NEA. There is the odd exception but these seem to be the general rule..

Edited January 29, 2018 by Flood

[Legend]

Yes I used to see many a Euston Train leave from Glasgow Central.  On mk3 formations the guard was in BG until DVTs appeared

[bill badger]

Thanks all. BGs / NEAs it is then; I think for some reason I had it in my head that BGs & NEAs weren't gangwayed (so what did the G stand for then!). Still nice to have the confirmation.

[muddy water]

BG braked gangway.

You must be thinking of GUVs General utility Van. These had end doors for loading only. Usual cars, on the motor rail trains. These were used on the WCML attached to passenger trains.

[Johnfromoz]

Very interested in any pictures or recollections of Mk 3 WCML stock working with MK 2 e/f stock. I know it would only be occasional as the BGs were the conventional option. Seem to recall possibly some Holyhead services mixing mk2/3.

 

Anyone recall such mixtures?

 

TIA

[GordonC]

there was always some sets with mk2 air conditioned coaches for the bulk of the rake but a mk3 buffet coach ... was it an RFM?

 

also earlier days, perhaps early 80s, had very mixed rakes

[mjkerr]

WCML rakes 1986 / 1987 were basically in these types of formations :

 

WB 300

WB 302

Manchester Pullman

Mk 2d BSO, 3x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3 RFB, 3x Mk 3b FO, RKB / Optional Mk 3b FO / Optional NEX

 

WB 303

WB 304

Merseyside Pullman

4x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 3x Mk 3b FO, RBR, NEA

 

WB328

Lancashire Pullman

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RKB, 3x Mk 3b FO, NEA

 

WB 305

Mk 2d SO, 7x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RSM, Mk 3a FO, Mk 3b FO , NEA

 

WB 306

WB 307

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d SO, 2x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, Mk 3a FO, Mk 3b FO, NEA

 

WB 308

WB 309

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 3x Mk 3a FO, NEA

 

WB 310

WB 311

Mk 2d SO, Mk 2d TSO, 5x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 2x Mk 3b FO, NEA

 

WB 320

Clansman (Euston - Glasgow)

3x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, Mk 3a FO, Mk 3b BFO

 

WB 321

WB 324

Clansman (Euston - Inverness)

NHA, Mk 3a FO, 5x Mk 3a TSO

 

WB 322

WB 323

WB 326

6x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 2x Mk 3a FO, NHA

 

WB 327

6x Mk 3a TSO, RBR, 2x Mk 3a FO, NHA

 

OY 260

4x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 4x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

OY 261

OY 262

OY 263

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 4x Mk 2d, NEA

 

OY 264

OY 265

OY 266

Mk 2d SO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 3x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

OY 267

Mk 2c SO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 4x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

OY 268

Mk 2d BSO, 4x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 4x Mk 2d FO, 2 x NEA

 

OY 271

OY 273

Mk 2d BSO, 4x Mk 2d TSO

 

OY 270

OY 272

RBR, 3x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

OY 274

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 4x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

OY 275

OY 276

Midlands - Scotland sets

 

LL 300

4 Mk 2d TSO, 3x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 3 x Mk 3a FO, NEA

 

LL 301

Mk 2d BSO, 7x Mk 2d SO, RBR, 2x Mk 3a FO, NEA

 

MA 300

Manchester Pullman

Mk 2d TSO, 3x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 3x Mk 3b FO, RKB, Mk 3b FO (brake van?)

 

MA 301

2x Mk 2d TSO, 6x Mk 3a TSO, RBR, 2x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

MA 302

Mk 2d TSO , 5x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RSM, 2x Mk 3a FO, NEA

 

MA 260

MA 261

MA 262

MA 263

MA 264

MA 265

Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 2x Mk 2d FO, NEA

 

CL 300

CL 301

Mk 2d BSO, Mk 2d SO, 4x Mk 2d TSO, 3x Mk 3a TSO, RBR, 2x Mk 3a FO, NEA

 

CL 320

CL 321

CL 322

6x Mk 3a TSO, Mk 3a RFB, 2x Mk 3a FO, NHA

Edited January 28, 2018 by mjkerr

[Bomag]

I assume the reference to Mk2d include all d,e and f variants given that they add up to more Mk2d coaches than were built.

[mjkerr]

I assume the reference to Mk2d include all d,e and f variants given that they add up to more Mk2d coaches than were built.

Agreed, the article only lists Mark 2D coaches in formations

However, there is a breakdown of all coaches by depot, which includes 2D 2E 2F

[rodent279]

The Stranraer-Euston boat train, notorious for running late (an hour down was near enough right time!), usually had 1 or 2 GUV's on the rear, with cars in. Can't remember the full formation, but I think it was mainly Mk2 PV's.

Edited January 29, 2018 by rodent279

[Johnfromoz]

Agreed, the article only lists Mark 2D coaches in formationsHowever, there is a breakdown of all coaches by depot, which includes 2D 2E 2F

Thanks for the formation info. I was surprised to see any reference to Mk 2d on WCML - had they been cascaded from the ECML by this time? I always associated them with the Eastern and a few on the western.

 

John

[Pete the Elaner]

there was always some sets with mk2 air conditioned coaches for the bulk of the rake but a mk3 buffet coach ... was it an RFM?

 

also earlier days, perhaps early 80s, had very mixed rakes

I have seen photos of very mixed rakes & a friend tells me he liked the way the odd mix of lengths snaked through the station throat at Euston.

I believe it would have been the 110mph services which separated them because the Mk2s were only maintained for 100mph.

[Flood]

Thanks for the formation info. I was surprised to see any reference to Mk 2d on WCML - had they been cascaded from the ECML by this time? I always associated them with the Eastern and a few on the western.

 

John

As stated above the use of Mk2D was more of a generic term in the PTMCs. In fact the copy I referred to actually stated AC2D, AE2D etc as POIS had just started to be used. By 1987 the majority of the Mk2D TSOs and BSOs were at Norwich. The FOs were spread around Anglia, Charter rakes and West Coast. The FKs and BFKs were spread around Anglia, Cross Country and West Coast.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Flood

[mjkerr]

The Stranraer-Euston boat train, notorious for running late (an hour down was near enough right time!), usually had 1 or 2 GUV's on the rear, with cars in. Can't remember the full formation, but I think it was mainly Mk2 PV's.

The topic discussed Mark 3 coaches, but I have not included the Mark 3 sleepers (as the rakes are quite complicated)

However there is no record of this having GUV during the intercity period, suggesting this was prior to 1984

 

EN 260

EN 261

EN 262

6x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, Mk 2d FO, NEA

[mjkerr]

I have seen photos of very mixed rakes & a friend tells me he liked the way the odd mix of lengths snaked through the station throat at Euston.

I believe it would have been the 110mph services which separated them because the Mk2s were only maintained for 100mph.

Mixed rakes were more common in the early 1980s, as very few services were operated at 110mph

Where a service was operating at 110mph it required the entire rake be Mark 3 coaches with a NHA (rated at 110mph)

 

Sadly for maintenance the buffet would quite often be a Mark 1, so this limited the set to 100mph

This was quite common at the early stage of the Mark 3 RFM conversions

 

Equally, for a few days someone forgot one the Glasgow - Euston rakes had a Mark 2C TSO instead of a Mark 3A TSO

It had been attached to remove one the Mark 3 coaches but the buckeye on the Mark 3 coach refused to release

Time ran out and rather than have just four Mark 3A TSO, it was sent out and was supposed to return that night, but at Euston the diagrams swapped before it was realised the set had a note to return to Polmadie that night

[rodent279]

The topic discussed Mark 3 coaches, but I have not included the Mark 3 sleepers (as the rakes are quite complicated)

However there is no record of this having GUV during the intercity period, suggesting this was prior to 1984

 

EN 260

EN 261

EN 262

6x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, Mk 2d FO, NEA

The Strannie, if I recall correctly, was not a full sleeper train, though it may have carried one or two sleepers. It definitely had GUV's on up to about 1986 though. I think a couple may have appeared in IC livery towards the end.

[rodent279]

Mixed rakes were more common in the early 1980s, as very few services were operated at 110mph

Where a service was operating at 110mph it required the entire rake be Mark 3 coaches with a NHA (rated at 110mph)

 

Sadly for maintenance the buffet would quite often be a Mark 1, so this limited the set to 100mph

This was quite common at the early stage of the Mark 3 RFM conversions

 

Equally, for a few days someone forgot one the Glasgow - Euston rakes had a Mark 2C TSO instead of a Mark 3A TSO

It had been attached to remove one the Mark 3 coaches but the buckeye on the Mark 3 coach refused to release

Time ran out and rather than have just four Mark 3A TSO, it was sent out and was supposed to return that night, but at Euston the diagrams swapped before it was realised the set had a note to return to Polmadie that night

I don't think 110mph running started until the May 1984 timetable.

[mjkerr]

The Strannie, if I recall correctly, was not a full sleeper train, though it may have carried one or two sleepers. It definitely had GUV's on up to about 1986 though. I think a couple may have appeared in IC livery towards the end.

Yes, but as above I have not included the sleeper services (due to their complexity)

Also, the article is for the 1986 allocations

[mjkerr]

I don't think 110mph running started until the May 1984 timetable.

Sounds about right, for the first full timetable, but was very limited to begin with

This followed the abandoning of the APT and introduction of Mark 3A coaches

 

From memory the first year (which would then be May 1983) used three Class 87 and three rakes of Mark 3A coaches, although they were still timed to 100mph

In the first timetable these services were easy to identify as they did not stop between Preston - Euston, and typically arrived 15 minutes early

There were union issues to be resolved, and during this period these were addressed

Similar to HST, unions wanted a driver and second man, as the train speed was in excess of 100mph

There were also maintenance concerns with such sets requiring more visits to depots and in turn pressure on staff to meet these

Edited January 29, 2018 by mjkerr

[EddieK]

Back in Summer 1989 I started work at Wembley Carriage Depot. At that time, the new DVTs were still being built, so the NHAs were typical Guard/luggage accommodation. As I recall, there was a set dedicated to Blackpool services and for some reason this had the BG at the north end not the normal position at the Euston end.

Earlier that year, set WB08 had suffered a derailment and the five normal TSOs were damaged. The sixth TSO, next to the Buffet was the wheelchair TSO with wheelchair space and a larger toilet. This set had the damaged vehicles replaced by facelifted Mark 1 late-build TSOs. Because it was an "odd" set it was on a special diagram that returned it to Wembley every night. So this set had BG - 2 Mark 3a FO - Mark 3 RF - Mark 3 TSO(W) and 5 Mark 1 TSO.

At that time, WB06 - WB18 were "normal" Mark 3 sets (though see above for WB08) with BG - 2x Mark 3a FO - Mark 3 RF - 6x Mark 3 TSO.

The "Pullman" sets were WB60-something with BG - 3x Mark 3b Pullman FO - Mark 3 RF - 5x Mark 3a TSO.

The "Super Pullman" sets (might have been MA based) had a second RF and IIRC the Mark 3b BFOs and obviously a shorter second class section.

WB05 was the special set with BG - 3x Mark 3a FO - RF - 6x Mark 3a TSO so it could cover for a normal set or a Pullman set. Once I allocated it to a particular diagram (possibly after push pull introduction) that had motorail vans attached as well. Because this was one coach longer than any other set, the back of the train stuck out into the station throat at Euston and gave them a headache.

WB04 set did not exist.

WB01-03 sets were like the "normal" sets above but with Mark 2f TSOs vice Mark 3a.

 

When the Edinburgh-Glasgow service was about to convert from Mark 3 + DBSO to Class 158s in 1990 (ish), Wembley had to loan some coaches to ScotRail so as to allow the Scottish based Mark 3s to go through works and be upgraded to the current InterCity refurbishment.

When the ScotRail coaches had all been through works, the end result was that WB01-03 lost the Mark 2f TSOs in favour of Mark 3a while WB04 set was newly formed, of Mark 3a and probably with a DVT by then.

 

The ScotRail fleet had included 6x Mark 3a FO, later downgraded to Composite Opens. Of these, two became FOs again in new set WB04, while the other four were converted to TSOs with wheelchair accommodation, with new TSO numbers 12169 - 12172, to give the wheelchair accommodation in WB01-04.

[Johnfromoz]

Very interesting - Thanks

 

Would it be correct to presume the Mk1 TSOs would have been in intercity (raspberry ripple) livery?

 

John