Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Signalling the changes...

[BlueLightning]

18 hours ago, Regularity said:

What printer (and resin) are you using?

 

It's an AnyCubic Photon Ultra DLP printer, using AnyCubic's Plant Based UV Resin. We tried multiple different resins before settling on this one, it seems strong and resilient to long term UV exposure (Tested by throwing printed models at the floor from about 9ft once a week until they fail) It also seems to give better detail with the DLP printer than resins from other manufacturers, I use Siraya Tech resin at home on my LCD printer (Elegoo Mars) which gives great detail on that printer.

 

Gary

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Apart from the buffers, vac pipe and ventilators, everything was already possible in plasticard.  I am therefore not as worried as you seem to be.  The tools have changed but skill is still required to get the good result.

 

I agree the design and printing is still very much modelling, and that it requires skill and time (I use a Silhouette cutter myself, although that’s stone-age technology already!).

 

My comment was more an expression of being overwhelmed by the possibilities that this quality of printing allows for. The temptations from interesting kits and lovely pre-grouping RTR locos that I don't need is big enough already. So far I've managed to stay the course, but I expect it's about to get harder 🙂

 

[Regularity]

It’s a technique, rather than a craft. It’s about design and construction, but not about making.

Unless you use someone else’s 3D models (or 2D with cutters) then it’s just like buying a partly made shell, or a kit.

All require finishing correctly!

 

Not criticising any approach of putting one above the other, but I am not sure if “skill” is the right word here.

 

When you buy something, be that RTR, kit, parts, or even a computer file, you are spending money to save on time, usually related to the time you would spend with your hands. This particular technique is just another variation on that perspective. My own view is that if something is available in any format other than the raw materials, and it is at least as good at meeting my standards for accuracy (both dimensionally, and quality of workmanship) then it seems fairly pointless to hack away at things by hand, particularly for certain components like wagon axleboxes, springs and buffers. But that’s why I went into S scale, over 40 years ago, and such things are both a boon and a blessing in this regard.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

It’s a technique, rather than a craft. It’s about design and construction, but not about making.

 

It still requires an acquired skill. 

 

3 minutes ago, Regularity said:

But that’s why I went into S scale, over 40 years ago, and such things are both a boon and a blessing in this regard.

 

Bad news - relatively easily scaleable to S!

 

But I think you know this and have made use of it.

[Regularity]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It still requires an acquired skill. 

Yes, but a different one, which is my point.

 

Not so much the skill of a craftsman, as that of a designer. 
 

And yes, I have been happy to try out these products as produced by others, particularly for “repeat” items, where non identical variations are noticeable, also where I might not otherwise have bothered. 
 

As I said, both a boon and a blessing: but if I can buy it in a state of needing painting, and it will be better than I could make, then what incentive do I have to make it myself, not being one or the Tony Reynolds or Trevor Nunns of this world?

Edited July 25, 2022 by Regularity
Removal of errant apostrophe.

[Skinnylinny]

I suppose it's similar to the difference between buying ready-to-run, and kit/scratchbuilding? It's somewhere on the spectrum, anyway. 

I *could* build a layout and run only RTR out-of-the-box locos and stock (certainly I could put together a reasonable LBSC branchline train from a Hornby or Rails terrier, some Hornby 4-wheelers, with an SECR goods train from Rapido, an LSWR goods train with an Oxford/Hornby Adams Radial and some private owners, finished off with a Kernow road van, with passenger stock being perhaps provided by Hattons Genesis carriages. 

However, one of the main things I like about the late Victorian/Edwardian pre-grouping period is the variety, both in colours and designs of stock, and this simply isn't available ready-to-run. So I make do with what I can. I have a few ready-to-run locomotives, but very few that haven't been modified (my Bachmann LB&SCR E4 for example has been un-superheated, with different safety valve arrangement, and a complete repaint). It's still a time- and energy-saver over scratchbuilding, and it suits me. Where there isn't something available that'll meet my requirements with a bit of work (for example, open carriage trucks), I use the 3D printing.



I have the greatest of respect for those who can manage to scratchbuild in traditional materials, but with my shaky hands and the chronic fatigue, gluing together tiny bits of plasticard or cutting and soldering sheet brass is not something I've been able to really do much of over the last year or two. I am doing my best though - I'm still learning to use the ruling pen to do lining, and for example. It's not perfect, but it keeps slowly getting better, and eventually I hope to be able to produce lining I'm happy with!

[Skinnylinny]

The horsebox is now mostly cleaned up (I've left the supports holding up the upper footboard, as it's a bit vulnerable while painting).

Removing the printing supports was a bit fraught, and a few small bits got damaged, so I need to make up a couple of footboard supports and two axleguard tie-bars from Plastruct, which shouldn't take long. There's also a slight bow to it, but I'm going to give it a few more days for that to finish developing, before using the "soak in hot water and gently bend back to square" trick that works so well. Once completed, it will also have a floor and wall glued inside which should help hold things straight and true.

 

As I'm visiting Gary, he's been encouraging me to finish the design of the SECR 3-carriage 6-wheel pull-push set, and we now have a test print of the complete train. It's looking rather nice, although the photo is out of date - currently the train is on its second coat of Phoenix SE&CR carriage lake and still looking a little patchy. There are a couple of warping issues still to be solved (mainly on the bodies, and I reckon I know where to add strengthening beams and ribs to achieve that)





The next two days are going to be rest days, before a Big Day Out on Sunday, going to the Bluebell for their terrier gala event. Sadly Fenchurch won't be in steam, but there will still be a terrier in Improved Engine Green (Poplar) running about, as well as W11 from across the Solent.

[Skinnylinny]

And speaking of the bow pen... it may only be a start, but it's a decent start, I think! The lining should strictly be on, rather than inside the beading, but this was much easier to keep consistent.

[Regularity]

7 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

design of the SECR 3-carriage 6-wheel pull-push set

Technicality speaking, LCDR coaches converted to push-pull. ;)

[Skinnylinny]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Technicality speaking, LCDR coaches converted to push-pull. ;)

 

Technically speaking, converted to pull-push, not push-pull. 😜 And post-amalgamation, but still...

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

 

Technically speaking, converted to pull-push, not push-pull. 😜 And post-amalgamation, but still...

I will admit to Wainwright having a certain flair for making locos look nice, in every other respect, I am completely chauvinistic when it comes to preferring the Chatham over the SER!

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

I will admit to Wainwright having a certain flair for making locos look nice, in every other respect, I am completely chauvinistic when it comes to preferring the Chatham over the SER!

 

Wainwright had nothing to do with the appearance of South Eastern engines. He was busy on the carriage & wagon side, following in his Derby-trained father's footsteps. 

 

If you like both Chatham and South Eastern engines, as I do, then the place to go is the Hull & Barnsley - originally equipped, rolling-stock-wise, by Derby-trained William Kirtley (he had been his uncle's Works Manager), it then appointed Matthew Stirling (nephew of the South Eastern's Locomotive Superintendent) who produed some very nice O-like 0-6-0s. 

 

Kirtley's involvement with the Hull & Barnsley was entirely down to James Staats Forbes having a substantial finger in that pie.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Wainwright had nothing to do with the appearance of South Eastern engines. He was busy on the carriage & wagon side, following in his Derby-trained father's footsteps. 

I wasn’t claiming that he did, Stephen.

 

What he did do, for the Joint Committee, was take the brilliant design work of Surtees and elevate it to the pinnacle of Edwardian mechanical beauty.

 

Granted, I didn’t explicitly say that, but I took it as read that people knew that..,

[Compound2632]

Just now, Regularity said:

I wasn’t claiming that he did, Stephen.

 

What he did do, for the Joint Committee, was take the brilliant design work of Surtees and elevate it to the pinnacle of Edwardian mechanical beauty.

 

Granted, I didn’t explicitly say that, but I took it as read that people knew that..,

 

I was just taking any excuse for mentioning the Derby connections...

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was just taking any excuse for mentioning the Derby connections...

That I truly believe!

(I had wondered.)

 

So, do you know the connection between Martley, Kirtley (William) and the EWJR, and a supposed GA which is claimed not to exist, but which I managed to procure a few months ago? ;)

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

So, do you know the connection between Martley, Kirtley (William) and the EWJR, and a supposed GA which is claimed not to exist, but which I managed to procure a few months ago? ;)

 

No, do tell...

[Regularity]

The HBJR 2-4-0 is essentially an inside framed version of Martley’s “Enigma”, later no 50, which differed from the other two in the class (and most of the 2-4-0 “express passenger” classes on the Chatham at the time) in having 6’ diameter driving wheels.

When the EWJR approached Beyer, Peacock for a “passenger engine”, it was suggested that they simply take a Belpaire firebox version of Kirtley’s design for the HBJR, which they did, taking delivery in 1903.

 

It was originally thought that no drawings were prepared for this loco, but it turns out that when BP was shutting down Gorton, people could walk in and more or less help themselves to drawings and no records were kept of what there was, and what was taken.

Anyway, my eBay alert drew my attention to a sale of the drawing, in fact two of them, and I was mightily pleased to get my paws on them in time for Christmas just gone!

It was typical of the EWJR that they had no real need for such a loco (although by all accounts it steamed freely and ran superbly - very much a “driver’s favourite”) but bought one nevertheless. Also typical that they didn’t even get into the record books for having the last new 2-4-0 on a British railway: North Staffs built 2 in 1904. Also typical that it was, in terms of performance and capabilities, pretty much a design of 1869, the prototype of which was withdrawn only 2 years after this loco appeared. It was only inevitable that it took the number 13…

 

Trevor Nunn has prepared some suitable driving wheels for me, but this has been a year of upheaval with no modelling done, and have just been told we have an above the asking price offer on the house! I cut frames for this loco about 25 years ago. I think I know where they are, but whether or not they are up to scratch is another matter…

…and I am currently busy trying very hard not to distract myself with the BCR and the Cambrian Railways! (Kitson, Sharp Stewart and Beyer Peacock all produced such lovely 6-wheel tender locos!)

[Compound2632]

So here's one of the Hull & Barnsley ones, on its second rebuilding by Matthew Stirling, but still proudly displaying its Beyer, Peacock origins:

 

 

[Embedded link.]

 

I think that's the fattest boiler ever put on a 2-4-0.

 

M.A. Barker, An Illustrated History of Hull & Barnsley Railway Locomotives (Challenger Publications, 1996), presumes derivation of the H&B Class C 2-4-0s from Martley's 6' 6" Europa class, missing the connection with Enigma.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

M.A. Barker, An Illustrated History of Hull & Barnsley Railway Locomotives (Challenger Publications, 1996), presumes derivation of the H&B Class C 2-4-0s from Martley's 6' 6" Europa class, missing the connection with Enigma.

Ah, I got them confused, but I am not sure what difference there is (other than the driving wheels on Enigma itself).

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Ah, I got them confused, but I am not sure what difference there is (other than the driving wheels on Enigma itself).

 

I read the relevant volume of Bradley many years ago, borrowed from the local public library. Perhaps I should go hunting for second-hand copies. As I recall his books are not only stuffed full of information but well written and a pleasure to read.

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So here's one of the Hull & Barnsley ones, on its second rebuilding by Matthew Stirling, but still proudly displaying its Beyer, Peacock origins:

It was Stirling who put on that enormous boiler (note the lack of a dome).

 

They were much prettier originally:

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Regularity said:

They were much prettier originally:

 

That's after Matthew Stirling's first go at rebuilding, or at least reboilering (note the lack of a dome).

 

They were even prettier as built, with dome, but I couldn't find a photo on line so decided to go for broke with the Class H1 rebuild!

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

From my extensive private collection:

[Compound2632]

Very nice.

 

Apologies for to @Skinnylinny for this digression into Chatham and South Eastern* influences in the North!

 

*It does seem to me that Matthew's engines owe a bit more to Uncle James than to his dad.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It does seem to me that Matthew's engines owe a bit more to Uncle James than to his dad.

Nothing wrong with a bit of competition in the “Nepotism Derby”!

(See wot I did there?0

 

And yes, apologies for meandering a bit, although the EWJR was only north if you lived south of the Midlands!