Rolling stock cascades

[Hesperus]

I saw this on the Rail Magazine website when following a link from another topic

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/off-lease-fleets

 

 

Angel Trains fleets off lease/at risk

 

Train configuration        Built  Current operator    Total vehicles

Class 43 locomotives      1xlocomotive        1976-82      60

HST coaches         1xcoach       1976-82      302

Class 142 DMU ‘Pacer’  79 x 2-car    1985-87      158

Class 153 DMU     10 x 1-car    1987-88               10

Class 153 DMU 20 x 1-car       1987-88               20

Class 156 DMU 4 x 2-car         1988-1989            8

Class 158 DMU 16 x 2-car       1989-92               32

Class 172 DMU     8 x 2-car     2009-10      16

Class 175 DMU     11 x 2-car    1999-2000   22

Class 175 DMU 16 x 3-car       1999-2001   48

Class 180 DMU     4 x 5-car     2000-01      20

Class 314 EMU     16 x 3-car    1978-80      48

Class 317 EMU     72 x 4-car    1981-87      288

Class 350 EMU     20 x 4-car    2013-14      80

Class 360 EMU     21 x 4-car    2002-03      84

Class 442 EMU     7 x 5-car     1988-89      35

Class 465 EMU     50 x 4-car    1991-93      200

Class 466 EMU     43 x 2-car    1993-94      86

Class 507 EMU     32 x 3-car    1978-80      96

Class 508 EMU     27 x 3-car    1979-80      81

Class 707 EMU     30 x 5-car    2016-17      150

Total vehicles:1,796

 

Eversholt Rail fleets off lease/at risk

Train Configuration       Built  Current operator    Total vehicles

Class 91 locomotives      1 locomotive         1988-1990   31

Mk 4 coaches        1 coach       1988-92      271

Class 185 DMU     22 x 3-car    2005-06      66

Class 313 EMU     44 x 3-car    1976-77      132

Class 315     EMU 61 x 4-car    1980-81      244

Class 321     EMU 110 x 4-car  1988-91      440

Class 322     EMU 5 x 4-car              1990  20

Class 365 EMU     21 x 4-car    GTR/GN     1994-95      84

Total vehicles:      1,288

Note: There is a pre-contracted and still-current option for VTEC to retain six ‘short rakes’ (each comprising 1x Class 91+6 Mk 4 coaches and one DVT) plus a spare Class 91, all to the end of the ICEC franchise.  This would mean the number of off-lease IC225 elements could reduce to: 24 Class 91 locos, 25 Mark IV DVTs and 229 Mark IV passenger coaches. 

 

Macquarie Rail

Train Configuration       Built  Current operator    Total vehicles

Class 379 EMU     30 x 4-car    2010-11      GA    120

Total vehicles:      120

 

Porterbrook

Train Configuration       Built  Current operator    Total vehicles

Class 43      1 locomotive         1976-82      55

Class 90      1 locomotive         1987-88      15

Mk 3 SLEP 1 coach       1980-85      52

Mk 3 Day coach    1 coach       107    1975-85      107

Mk 3 HST coach   1 coach       1976-82      218

Class 143 DMU     22 x 2-car    1985-86      44

Class 144 DMU     13 x 2-car    1986-87      26

Class 144     DMU 10 x 2-car    1986-87      20

Class 150/2 DMU  37 x 2-car    1986-87      74

Class 153 DMU     13 x 1-car    1987-88      13

Class 156     DMU         9 x 2-car     1988  18     

Class 170 DMU              4 x 2-car     2002  8

Class 170 DMU              17x2-car      1999-2000   34

Class 170     DMU 8 x 3-car     1999-2000   24

Class 170     DMU 6 x 3-car     1999-2000   18

Class 319     EMU 54 x 4-car    1987-90      216

Class 323     EMU 43 x 3-car    1992-93      129

Class 350     EMU 37 x 4-car 2008-2009     148

Class 455 EMU     91 x 4-car    1979-85      364

Class 456 EMU     24 x 2-car    1990-91      48

Class 458     EMU 36 x 5-car    1998-2000   180

Total vehicles:      1,827

 

 

It looks like a terrifying amount of stock will be looking for work (5021 vehicles). 

 

IEP's are replacing 635 HST vehicles and up to 322 225 and 180 vehicles

 

As the 175's are on the list does this mean that all of ATW's stock is on the list?  Presumably due to the Welsh Assebly and DFT's failure to sort anything out for the end of the franchise.  Could this leave us in a situation where another operator could sign up to take them on the 13th of October leaving us without any trains?

 

It would be increadably inconvenient for the local rail users but could lead to some interesting sights when whoever draws the short straw has to lease whatever is left over (Pacers, HSTs and non DDA compliant Sprinters presumably).

[black and decker boy]

A significant number are only looking for a scrap yard.

 

Rail seem to have included fleets that are on lease and have no announced replacement or timescales yet, including South Eastern, Wales and East Midlands franchises.

 

Some fleets are being replaced as they are very old and very knackered. Not sure it’s news really but 1544 of those are not really fit for continued service.

 

Not sure why 2 class 350 fleets are listed as only 1 has no current future home.

 

The first class 365 sets have now been stood down by GN and are now in storage at Ely. They are too good to scrap but with no new wires, you could not predict the future in any positive way.

[ColinK]

Yes its quite true that an operator could end up with no trains. Indeed this has already happened. I think it was TransPennine (possibly Northern) where the franchise was nearing its end. Some of its trains were at the end of their leasing agreement. TP could not sign up for a long lease on those units as it may not retain the franchise. Chiltern also wanted the units and was able to sign up to a long lease, so the units moved south leaving us in the north without enough trains to run our services.

 

Eventually a temporary solution was found, which resulted in loco hauled trains on the Cumbrian Coast line. Great result for enthusiasts, not so great for commuters as the trains have not been too reliable.

[Covkid]

Yes its quite true that an operator could end up with no trains. Indeed this has already happened. I think it was TransPennine (possibly Northern) where the franchise was nearing its end. Some of its trains were at the end of their leasing agreement. TP could not sign up for a long lease on those units as it may not retain the franchise. Chiltern also wanted the units and was able to sign up to a long lease, so the units moved south leaving us in the north without enough trains to run our services.

 

Eventually a temporary solution was found, which resulted in loco hauled trains on the Cumbrian Coast line. Great result for enthusiasts, not so great for commuters as the trains have not been too reliable.

 

 

It was actually the DfT who dilly dallied with the TPE franchise, seemingly unable to pin the franchise renewal date onto the donkey's behind on the wall chart.

 

Chiltern Trains needed more DMUs for their new Oxford operation, so in order to keep their assets earning the Rosco did a deal with TPE for the "soon to be off lease" 170s, and the rest is history. The DfT empowered DRS to spend well over a million each on a pair of rotten 37/4s and some Mk2 stock so they could switch a few 156s from Cumbria towards Manchester to release some TPE 185s to cover the work the TPE 170s  evaporated from. DfT have form !!!!

[Covkid]

I think the charts are actually a little misleading because there are no timescales published.

As the workshops at Kilmarnock and Wolverton are still welding large amounts of steel into the 30+ year old 150/2s I don't believe they are going anywhere in the next five years.

Similarly, if the Roscos are planning on keeping the 33 year old 150/1s in traffic then the considerably younger 170s are also here for the long haul.

 

Obviously everything has a theoretical final life so you could say those 170s are at risk, but maybe not until after their 35th birthday around 15 years from now !!!

[Hesperus]

I can't see any DMU's other than the pacers being scrapped in the next 10-15 years,  I think the pacers would have been made to last another 10 years if it wasn't for DDA and political pressure at Northern and I have a sneaking suspician that a few 143's or 144's might survive past 2020 by having the toilets removed so they can cheaply comply with DDA to increase peak capacity in the Welsh Valley lines.

 

If the new stock purchases and subsequent cascades had been properly planned and managed we could be approaching 2020 with a comfortable strategy to refurbish the good ex BR stock like 156's in plenty of time to wave goodbye to the ageing PEP stock and Pacers.  Instead we have hundreds of 90's built EMU coachs potentially being scrapped and dozens of 70s built HST's being extensively rebuilt to overcome a shortage of DMU's.

[cheesysmith]

Most of that list is either because no new franchise deals have been anounced, meaning there is no one to sign a lease or them, or they are due to be replaced and are at the end of theor working life (pacers and PEP stock). The HSTs are a expensive train to lease, so unless you need a 125mph intercity train, expect the unrefurbished one to be going for scrap. There are two anomalies in that list, the 153s, which there has not been a good idea put forward for them, as making them DDA compliant would loose too much seating capacity and the other options are to either reform them back into 2 coach trains or remove the toilets completely and use them as extra coaches for 2 coach DMUs. The other oddity is the 379s, a victim of being ordered at the height of the banking crash, making them the most expensive train to lease at the moment (it might even be financially viable to refinance them with the present cheaper rates to reduce the lease costs).

[Hesperus]

I've just been reading about a new DaFT scheme on WNXX to look into making the ex-SWT fleet of 158s and 159s into BiModes so they can use the 3rd rail on their way into London. It is in the franchise agreement here on page 358. How little knowledge about the trains do the bean counters at the DFT have?

 

Being diesel hydraulics that are desperately needed by all the ex-Regional Railways franchises this has to be one of the daftest ideas yet.  There is talk of reusing the brand new traction packages from the 455 fleet but how on earth would it be done and if it did would the flimsy alloy bodys cope with the weight?

 

A far more sensible idea has been proposed (on WNXX) to couple 3x 455MS inside a 456 DMS and a 455 DTS (or 5REP) to haul 455 DTS-5x455TS-455DTS (or 7TC) with a 68 or similar to act as the 33/1 for the trip to Exeter. 

 

Sorry to link to another forum but it looked like a big thing to be missing from here.

[duncan]

Bit curious why the HSTs are so expensive to lease.  I would have thought that they would have been fully depreciated by now (did the ROSCO have to buy them ?), meaning leasing charges would have come down.  Are the leases ROSCO or user repairing ?  That would have an effect, as presumably cost more to maintain.

[cheesysmith]

There are lots of strang things in leasing costs and also in track access costs. A lot of the ex BR stuff is fully depriciated but is being leased at replacement costs, making cheap new trains more attractive than continued used of the old stuff, as show in the angila franchise fleet replacement.

 

The other side is the track access costs. A class 90 and a rake of mk3s is cheaper variable access cost (to represent lower track wear) than a 91 and mk4s (because of their higher speed). But it was looked into for replacing the Norwich to London trains, where neither would exceed 100mph, and the 91 has the same static axle load and lower dinamic forces, so less track forces and wear at the same speed as the 90, but would still cost more?

 

We live in a world of accountants. Sometimes they do make sense.

[turbos]

It appears that 10 class 365 units currently stored have found a temporary use in Scotland on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High express route (E&G) to cover for the late running class 385 project. One 4 car unit is already in Glasgow for assessment and minor modification, if no major problems are found in test runs on the E&G route then the remaining 9 units will start operating hopefully before the July cascade of ScotRail DMU's to Northern. If they are found not to be suitable then ScotRail has a major headache as even with 6 car 170 units operating in August passengers are often unable to board E&G services.

 

Brian.

[Gwiwer]

The 379s are operationally compatible with the other Electrostars but have more in common with the 387s than earlier builds.  If they end up shuffled off the Stansted Express could they provide extra stock for C2C (who have a tiny batch of six units that don't mate with anything else they run) or possibly as a boost for Southern who seems intent on running 10-car 377s empty to Epsom Downs while the Brighton main line suffers chronic overcrowding in 8 or even 4-car trains.

 

The 319s are already being found new homes with Northern and - to be confirmed - with GWR which will mop up at least some of the fleet.  Here's hoping they do something about the low seat height, and also that anything they do doesn't involve ironing boards.

 

When these lists are examined closely it is obvious how many quite small batches of stock were ordered none of which really sits comfortably with the desire for an operationally standardised fleet.  The 360s for example or the 180s to pick another small class which has been regarded as less than successful despite their appeal (no doubt based on costs) to a couple of open-access operators.  The large fleets of Electrostars run by SouthEastern and Southern, which have many variations within them, are at least all nominally part of one large fleet able to go anywhere - at least on paper.  The 322s have led quite a nomadic existence themselves starting out as Stansted Express units before serving the North Berwick branch and ending up trundling around Yorkshire.  Had they been standard 321s they might have been kept by the various Anglian franchisees.  

[russ p]

This is because the government has poked its snoot into things, Grayling and his lookalike Wilkinson have completely messed all the new train orders up . l suspect quite a lot of it is to get rid of non DOO compliant stock.

The whole situation is farcical and the big looser is the passenger as all these new trains have those awful new seats that have no comfort whatsoever

But I'm sure some people will be making money from it all

[frobisher]

I've just been reading about a new DaFT scheme on WNXX to look into making the ex-SWT fleet of 158s and 159s into BiModes so they can use the 3rd rail on their way into London. It is in the franchise agreement here on page 358. How little knowledge about the trains do the bean counters at the DFT have?

 

Being diesel hydraulics that are desperately needed by all the ex-Regional Railways franchises this has to be one of the daftest ideas yet.  There is talk of reusing the brand new traction packages from the 455 fleet but how on earth would it be done and if it did would the flimsy alloy bodys cope with the weight?

The attractive thing about the ex-SWT 159 fleet is that they are pretty much fit for 2020 already with the 158's "just" needing retention toilets fitted. The 455 "donors" have the problem of just having cash spent on them, and not being suitable for anything but inner-suburban work. It's not about where else they would be useful but about what the franchise already has.

 

The largest chunk of any extra weight would be in the traction motors that are bogie hung in any case so not a problem for the bodywork as such. Given advances in diesel engine technology of the intervening 25+ years, replacement emissions compliant engines would likely be mostly more compact and hence lighter so you're really only worrying about the extra weight of the motor alternator sets plus the DC bus through the vehicles. Because these sets would be tasked with bi-mode running it is likely you could claw back weight by reducing the fuel tanks in size.

 

The powered bogies on the 455's are pretty much the same pattern as those on the 158/9's and should be interchangeable (only one per vehicle required for the former DMU, each 455 providing two). Obviously the current powerplant and transmission need to be removed, and it's vacated space re-used for a new (emissions compliant) genset which is likely to be a bit more compact, coupled to the transplanted motor-alternator sets from the 455's fed by a new 750V DC bus through the train. The traction motors would need regearing for 90mph running, but these rebuilds would have slightly more power per carriage than the donors so should probably cope with that fine enough.

 

I suspect the feasibility study would likely quickly conclude "You could, but it's a lot of expense relative to less costly rebuild of the 319 and 455 fleets to bi-mode power".

[E3109]

I'm surprised to see class 156s on that list just yet. So far, the TOCs can't get enough of them.

 

507s and 508s are of course to be replaced by the Stadtler sets in the next couple of years.

A Merseyrail colleague was telling me the other day, the rumour doing the rounds on the Liverpool Area DC Lines, is that they might be exported to China!

 

As working sets, or bales of swarf, I wonder.

[caradoc]

This is because the government has poked its snoot into things, Grayling and his lookalike Wilkinson have completely messed all the new train orders up . l suspect quite a lot of it is to get rid of non DOO compliant stock.

The whole situation is farcical and the big looser is the passenger as all these new trains have those awful new seats that have no comfort whatsoever

But I'm sure some people will be making money from it all

 

I don't have a lot of time for either of those mentioned above, but I can't see how they can be blamed for the windscreen issue affecting Scotrail's Class 385 sets, which is the reason for the need to use Class 365. IMHO that decision itself is strange, as these sets have never worked in Scotland so extensive Traincrew and Maintenance staff training will be required, not to mention gauging. However, with Class 345 now in use at Liverpool St, there should be Class 315 becoming available, which (apart from an additional coach, which could easily be removed) are identical to the Class 314 already operated by Scotrail.

And I doubt Hitachi will be making a lot of money from Class 385 now, quite the opposite in fact !

[DY444]

I don't have a lot of time for either of those mentioned above, but I can't see how they can be blamed for the windscreen issue affecting Scotrail's Class 385 sets, which is the reason for the need to use Class 365. IMHO that decision itself is strange, as these sets have never worked in Scotland so extensive Traincrew and Maintenance staff training will be required, not to mention gauging. However, with Class 345 now in use at Liverpool St, there should be Class 315 becoming available, which (apart from an additional coach, which could easily be removed) are identical to the Class 314 already operated by Scotrail.

And I doubt Hitachi will be making a lot of money from Class 385 now, quite the opposite in fact !

 

If you're going to back fill with metro-style units then the objective would be to release enough 380s to operate the full E-G timetable.  However there aren't enough 380s working on diagrams which can be operated by non body-side camera fitted units to achieve this.  So having 314 clones in the form of 315s doesn't really help.

 

Looking at the whole picture, sticking a dozen-ish 365s on E-G and leaving everything else alone appears to be the least worst option and that's what they're looking at.

[Gwiwer]

315s are not able to maintain the timings on the Edinburgh - Glasgow main line.  I am not sure, either, if the "surplus" trailer could be removed as it might be the wiring cross-over vehicle or carry some other unique piece of kit.  Perhaps a 315 expert could advise.

[caradoc]

315s are not able to maintain the timings on the Edinburgh - Glasgow main line.  I am not sure, either, if the "surplus" trailer could be removed as it might be the wiring cross-over vehicle or carry some other unique piece of kit.  Perhaps a 315 expert could advise.

 

I was thinking more of Class 315 replacing Class 380 diagrams, thus releasing 380s for the E&G, Drivers on that route being trained for this type already. Apart from the extra coach Class 315 is identical to 314, and Scotrail have already received some Class 321 with a coach removed. However whether there sufficient suitable 380 diagrams is an issue, as DY444 says, and Class 315 is very much an inner-suburban type so would not go down well on Ayrshire diagrams ! If Class 365 is a realistic prospect for the E&G it makes one wonder just how long it will take to fix the 385s, given that introducing the 365s will take some time.

[phil-b259]

I must admit I don't understand why scotrail removed a coach from the 321s although bearing in mind I have never rode on a scotrail train.

 

My point is the units went up there as 4 cars and had 1 taken out but if the platforms are long enough, why not just run them as 4 cars and keep the maximum possible capacity available.

 

I would also say that if the removed coaches from the 321s were the same as those in the class 322s or even the 3rd rail 456s that however many 321 coaches are spare ( if they are still in 1 piece that is ) that the spare coaches could in theory be added to either of these classes.

 

Thus would have the effect of increasing some of the 322s to 5 cars or the 456s to at least 3 cars subject to enough coaches being available therefore increasing capacity where its needed.

 

As for the possibility of some units going to china ( depending on traction current supply available 3rd rail or 25Kv ) at the very least the 313, 314 & 315 classes would find further work.

 

1 country that I would say the 313, 314 & 315 classes would possibly be welcomed is india on their suburban network but not knowing how many units the suburban network operates it is only a slight possibility there would be enough units to replace the old non gangway stock that india railways currently operate.

 

There would possibly be enough units if the traction systems on the 507 & 508 classes could be converted from 750v dc to 25Kv ac then they would add a further 171 coaches on to the total number from the 313, 314 & 315 classes.

 

Extra coaches could also be made available if the 317s were no longer required on uk railways and as they are 4 car units and india railways suburban network operates upto 12 cars per train then between those 6 classes alone they would be ideal for use in india at least.

Because some Scottish platforms are long enough for 6 car trains (I.e. two 3 car units coupled.

 

While a single 4 car unit represents an increase over a 3 car unit, it's a significant downgrade from a 6 car train.

[caradoc]

Plus it kept the Class 320 fleet (the Scotrail 321s have been renumbered as 320s) to one standard; Having both 3 and 4 car sets of the same class causes additional complications for diagramming and platforming, as well as headaches when things go wrong and sets are not where they should be !

[Hesperus]

A slight hitch with sending any 31x units to India might be the gauge.

[black and decker boy]

Adding the 7 spare class 321 trailers to the 322 and 456s doesn’t really do much either as both fleets will be off lease and homeless very soon. The 456s are used to make 8 455s into 10 cars which is the current max on the London south west DC network.

 

If you got a diesel power train then adding them into class 150 DMU would be worthwhile but it seems it’s not likely to happen (ie it’s not feasible / economic)

[Gwiwer]

The 456s are used to make 8 455s into 10 cars which is the current max on the London south west DC network.

 

And very effective that has been in shifting the crowds.  The rolling stock diagrams are such that most trains into Waterloo between 08.00 - 09.00 and most out between 17.00 and 18.00 are 10 car.  Many others are as well of course, especially with the 707s now in full use giving 15 more 10-car trains including spares.

 

All of those however are due to go off lease within 2 - 3 years as the SWR replacement fleet of class 701 arrives.  The 455s and 456s are likely to go for scrap though the near-new Vossloh traction packages might be recovered for re-use.  

 

The 707s might appear to be homeless though there are suggestions without any substance that I know of that Southern might mop them up.  They are technically similar to the GTR class 700 fleet and could replace some 377s on suburban workings. That in turn releases units of classes 377/1-4 for main line duty strengthening existing 4 and 8-car trains.  One suggestion I know has been made is for the 377/3s to be assigned to Victoria - Sussex coast splitters; currently these are often imbalanced using 4-car units which must be split 4 and 8 leading to overcrowding in the 4-car portion.  Splitting into two 6-car portions might ease that so long as it doesn't have the reverse effect when an 8-car portion becomes 6.  Some operational staff have suggested there are issues with 12-car trains formed of 4x377/3 yet these operate every day currently on East Grinstead and Horsham duties.