Creating a believable freelance pre-Group company

[NCB]

Given that a number of American locos were imported pre-WWI, maybe an old-fashioned American steamer in HO could be of use. Roundhouse used to do some reasonably cheap old-time loco kits; unfortunately, these days they come ready built and a tad expensive.

[Caley Jim]

Given that a number of American locos were imported pre-WWI, maybe an old-fashioned American steamer in HO could be of use. Roundhouse used to do some reasonably cheap old-time loco kits; unfortunately, these days they come ready built and a tad expensive.

IIRC only the Midland and the Great Northern imported American locos and neither had any great success with them. Their light bar-framed construction not being up to the job for the work required of them.

 

Jim

[Sarcodelic]

IIRC only the Midland and the Great Northern imported American locos and neither had any great success with them. Their light bar-framed construction not being up to the job for the work required of them.

 

Jim

The Great Central also bought American 2-6-0s (and the Lynton and Barnstaple bought Lyn).

[whart57]

IIRC only the Midland and the Great Northern imported American locos and neither had any great success with them. Their light bar-framed construction not being up to the job for the work required of them.

 

Jim

 

Surely that only applied to the early 19th century imports. Weren't those huge American beasts beloved by NoAm modellers also bar-framed?

[Regularity]

Surely that only applied to the early 19th century imports. Weren't those huge American beasts beloved by NoAm modellers also bar-framed?

Yes.

As were the Bury engines on the L&B.

 

[Edit: that’s London and Birmingham.]

Edited March 12, 2018 by Regularity

[CKPR]

Kitson built 73 4'6 wheel 0-6-0s (K and L class) for the Taff Vale. The wheelbase was 7'3 + 7'9, 4'3" boiler barell and 6'5in pitch. There's a nice photo here:

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/railway-archive-issue-25/RARCH25

Which in turn are similar to the Beyer-Peacock engines bought by the M&CR (passim). I've previously mused on the utility (I won't say viability) of kits for the more common generic 0-6-0 designs of Sharp Stewart, Kitsons, Beyer-Peacock et al for us pre-group types.

[HonestTom]

On the subject of American imports, the Bachmann John Bull makes for a reasonably convincing pioneering loco (it was a Stephenson import, after all) if you remove the pony truck. I'm currently trying to figure out what to do with the tender, though, which looks nothing like anything that ever ran on British rails and can't be cut down without exposing the motor.

[Skinnylinny]

Perhaps turn the tender into a van of some description? Ian Simpson discusses his thoughts on this blog post of an interesting layout modelling 1840-ish in HO scale. Certainly some food for thought!

[JimC]

Dean designs, well GWR designs generally, are too distinctive to be usable in this sort of context. 

 

 

Well, here's something literally thrown together. Many bits are just resting on each other which is why it looks so very crooked... I hope... Has a Dapol City died in vain, or does this look vaguely like a generic 2-4-0 and its worth finishing it off and writing London & Surrey on the side?

 

 

I do think the rolled up plasticard stovepipe "chimney" and the terrier dome go a way towards making it look less GWR. The smaller dome especially. Just need some ramsbottom safety valves. [and a lot more skill and concentration!]

Edited March 13, 2018 by JimC

[Regularity]

I would say that the tender looks like something narrowed from GWR broad gauge, and would look better with a taller, narrower body with the springs above the footplate, but that’s a rather nice combination of features.

[whart57]

Without wishing to be critical I could suggest two things to de-Westernise this.

 

The first is to have a completely flat footplate, that step between leading pilot axle and leading driving axle says "hey, I'm really GWR"

 

The second, which may require a fair bit of hackery,  is to narrow the tender and move the springs up to above the footplate. It's probably not possible to pare the springs off and still be able to use them, but it should be possible to use some castings of wagon springs.

[JimC]

The first is to have a completely flat footplate, that step between leading pilot axle and leading driving axle says "hey, I'm really GWR"

 

Mmm, I think you're right, which is ironic since no GWR 2-4-0 had that feature either. Well, I may have a play...  Probably the right thing to do with the tender would be to use something completely different if a suitable donor were available. Not many options of course. I wondered about filling in the tender frames - if the frames were continuous below the axleboxes with ovoid cutouts above I think they'd look a lot less GWR. But that really needed doing before assembling the tender. If one did the same with the locomotive frames I think it would make a big difference. Perhaps something like this?

 

 

(top original, bottom 2-4-0)

[Antony Farrell]

Now that I have somewhere to put a model railway I am looking at something based upon the proposed London, Buckinghamishire and East Glocestershire Railway (L B & E G R). The scheme never eventuated but it is not difficult to see where it would have fitted in.

 

Now assuming that the Great Central/Great Western Joint still went ahead it gives a great deal of versatility to a layout set around 1912/13.

[whart57]

I don't know this one, so a couple of questions. In what era was the LB&EGR proposed? 1840s, 1860s, later? And what London terminus was proposed?

 

Also, given the Great Central and the Metropolitan were fairly late developments, would the prior existence of the LB&EGR have changed their plans, for example would the Watkin have sought to use their route into London for the GCR southern extension rather than the Metropolitan's

[sem34090]

My first fictional railway company history:

Feel free to criticize!

 

The Littlehampton, Goring & Worthing Railway

A complete history…

1: Background

The line known today as the Littlehampton, Goring & Worthing Railway (LG&WR) is first known to have been referred to as such in a timetable produced in 1863, soon after the opening of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway’s branch line to Littlehampton, but the line is known to have existed (In one form or another) from around the mid 1840’s, and believed to have commenced operations as the ‘Littlehampton Railway’ in around 1845, though this name is unconfirmed. The source of this information ^[1] states the following.

“The original 1840’s route of the Littlehampton Railway (later known as the Littlehampton, Goring and Worthing Railway) is believed to have come about as a result of the construction of the Brighton & Chichester Railway’s line to Worthing (from Shoreham) in 1845, and the wish of tradesmen in the villages to the West of Worthing to be connected to the railway. Although it was known that the B&CR planned to extend westwards towards Chichester and Portsmouth, the route did not serve Littlehampton or any of the smaller coastal settlements. The initial route ran from a small terminus towards the Southern end of Littlehampton Harbour, through several small stations at Rustington and East Preston and Goring & Ferring (Original Station, closed 1847) to a simple seafront terminus in Worthing itself. At this time there was no connection between the LGWR and B&CR stations in the town.”

 It was not long after the initial opening that the construction of a Northward branch through Ferring into Goring commenced, in order to connect to the B&CR line. The B&CR station was opened in March 1846, with the LGWR following in June that year, and it was here that the first link was made (Although plans had been made the previous year to build a line to link the two stations in Worthing they would not come to fruition until 1882 under a joint agreement with the LBSCR – see more further on) with the B&CR. The line remained virtually unchanged until the opening of the LBSCR Littlehampton branch in 1863, when a further connection was made to that company.

The final development of LGWR route mileage came in 1882, when (in a joint agreement with the LBSCR) authorisation was gained for a light street tramway to be constructed from the LGWR’s South Street terminus in Worthing, alongside Montague Street then along Crescent Road for 192 yards before crossing over an area of land adjacent to the house of the Sisters of Sion and the associated school. From here, the line crossed Gratwicke Road and Wykeham Road (the modern A259) before skirting the edge of Amelia Park along Norfolk Street. At the end of this road, the line crossed Howard Street and Tarring Road before curving round to join the LBSCR lines on the approach to Worthing (LBSCR) station. Initially the line was primarily LBSCR worked, with a shuttle service operating from platform four at Worthing (LBSC) to Worthing Seafront during the summer months. From 1905, the service became a regular haunt of railmotors and motor trains, often on an extended route to the local beauty spot at Findon.^[2]

The route was used extensively for internal and local military traffic during the First World War, leaving the LBSCR lines clear for through and long distance traffic which increased immensely during the conflict. This period saw extended use of LBSCR through stock to the various military establishments that existed in the area.

Upon the 1923 grouping, the company was absorbed into the Southern Railway, which immediately set about withdrawing the ageing and war-weary rolling stock of the independent company and replacing it with cascaded LBSCR stock. Having never proved especially profitable, but normally just about above breaking even, the passenger service was run down through the 1920’s, and these services had ceased by 1931. Goods services continued to remain just-about profitable, but the hit of the Wall Street Crash could be felt even in remotest parts of rural Sussex, and soon the line was making a definitive loss, struggling on through the 1930’s, until the outbreak of war in September 1939. At this stage, the line resumed the purpose that it had served 20 years previously during the Great War: diverting local traffic away from the main line through the area. It was because of this reprieve that the line was able to survive until 1952, when final closure beckoned.

 

2: Rolling Stock

Information on the original stock of the railway is scarce, but it is known that, in 1845, the company ordered three 0-4-0 and two 2-2-0 locomotives from Edward Bury and Company.

 

 

 

Although the 0-4-0’s were found to be a success, the 2-2-0’s suffered stability issues along the rather windswept coastal section between the Littlehampton terminus and East Preston station, and these were replaced as soon as 1847 by three 0-6-0 locomotives from Stothert, Slaughter & Company. These locomotives proved to be much better suited to the line’s requirements, and another pair were ordered later in 1847, relegating the 0-4-0’s to lighter duties. This locomotive fleet (By now numbering seven) continued to work the line into the 1850’s, being supplemented in 1859 by a second-hand E.B. Wilson ‘Jenny Lind’ 2-2-2 locomotive from the LBSCR, and in 1864, a pair Sharp, Stewart & Company 0-4-0 designs (of the design then being supplied to the Furness Railway) replaced the original Bury 0-4-0 locomotives.

This fleet of eight locomotives carried services through to the mid 1880’s, by which time the Stothert 0-6-0’s were very much life expired. These were replaced by four Manning Wardle 0-6-0ST locomotives, to the standard ‘L’ class design, in 1886.

Since its introduction in 1859, the ‘Jenny Lind’ 2-2-2 locomotive had handled most of the line’s passenger traffic and was beginning to wear out. Being to an outdated design, repairs were un-feasible, so replacement was the only option. The company therefore purchased two, modern design, 4-4-0 locomotives from Sharp, Stewart & Co in 1890.

Being very large locomotives (by LGWR standards!) these were not used much on the LGWR’s 7mile main line, and were sold (at near market value) to the Furness Railway in 1892. They were replaced by a triplet of much, much smaller manning Wardle 2-4-0T locos. Although of much lesser power and haulage capacity than the (somewhat over-powered) 4-4-0’s, these tiny locos proved very successful (as they had on the Milwall Extension Railway in East London) on the short-distance passenger trains the LGWR operated.

From this time the LGWR fleet stabilised, save for the acquisition of three Avonside 0-4-0ST’s in 1903, and the purchase of the GWR’s failed N^o 101 experiment in 1911. From 1906, the LBSCR introduced Railmotor services through the streets of Worthing to the seafront station of the LGWR during the summer seasons. At certain times, this service was extended to Findon, and was replaced by a class A1 + Motor Coach combination in 1907. By the outbreak of war, the LGWR fleet comprised of the following:

1, Littlehampton: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

2, Ferring: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

3, Goring: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

4, Worthing: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

5, Preston: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

6, Rustington: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

7, Duke of Norfolk: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

8, King Edward: Avonside 0-4-0ST

9, Angmering: Avonside 0-4-0ST

10, Sussex: Avonside 0-4-0ST

11, ‘Westie’: GWR 0-4-0T

 

Note: for manning wardle 2-4-0T’s, search ‘Milwall extension railway’ or London and Blackwall Railway. A 3D Printed model can be purchased here: https://www.shapeways.com/product/XCQBT4X6D/pla-millwall-extension-railway-2-4-0t-kit?optionId=56769234

For the 4-4-0’s, search ‘Furness Railway K2’.

[Antony Farrell]

I don't know this one, so a couple of questions. In what era was the LB&EGR proposed? 1840s, 1860s, later? And what London terminus was proposed?

 

Also, given the Great Central and the Metropolitan were fairly late developments, would the prior existence of the LB&EGR have changed their plans, for example would the Watkin have sought to use their route into London for the GCR southern extension rather than the Metropolitan's

The LB&EGR scheme was proposed in 1864 and backed by the Midland. It was to connect to the Midland mainline at Hendon so I assume the London terminus would have been that of the Midland Railway presumably St Pancras by the time this line would have opened if built. The line itself looks like it would be about 60 miles in length.

Now for my purposes I would like the line to have at least some stock of its own suitable for a 1912/13 period so what would I be looking at?

As for the GC using this line instead of the Metropolitan's I don't know, the GW was close with the GCR so possible would not have had a problem with this but what was the relationship like between the GC and Midland Railways?

Edited March 14, 2018 by Antony Farrell

[whart57]

If it's a line with close Midland connections then possibly looking at what the Somerset and Dorset was using at the time might be a start.

[whart57]

My first fictional railway company history:

Feel free to criticize!

 and these were replaced as soon as 1847 by three 0-6-0 locomotives from Stothert, Slaughter & Company. These locomotives proved to be much better suited to the line’s requirements, and another pair were ordered later in 1847, relegating the 0-4-0’s to lighter duties.

 

Mention of Slaughter and Co, later Slaughter Gruning reminds me of some very nice 0-4-2Ts they produced mid century.

 

 

For your 0-6-0T, why not push the boat out and have your railway running the products from Chapman Furneaux (I think) who built only two engines I think, some very nice 0-6-0Ts for the Lambourn Valley Railway

[Regularity]

the GW was close with the GCR so possible would not have had a problem with this but what was the relationship like between the GC and Midland Railways?

Not initially. The GCR was to buy the North Warwickshire, to gain access to Birmingham by building a short connection from the London Extension, which rather annoyed the GWR. But in the end, financial realities forced the GCR to strike a deal with the GWR, and they withdrew from the North Warwickshire (and any designs on Birmingham) in return for running powers and joint lines near London.

[whart57]

Bit more on those Chapman Furneaux engines. They were built in 1898 for the Lambourne Valley Railway but were bought in 1904 by the Cambrian Railways to operate the Tanat Valley line. Sadly ( ) this meant they ended up with the GWR who did their usual Swindonisation job on them. The Beattie drawing below shows them in that state. No doubt a bit of purification and defumigation would be required before they were suitable for the Goring line

 

[whart57]

Regards fumigation, a comparison of the Welshpool locos before and after Swindon got hold of them might help to identify what needs to be removed

[Corbs]

 

[JimC]

Regards fumigation, a comparison of the Welshpool locos before and after Swindon got hold of them might help to identify what needs to be removed

There are drawings in Russell's Pictorial Record of Great Western Absorbed engines, not in full detail though.

changes seem to include

smokebox

chimney

top feed

safety valves

bunker extension

That looks to me like a GW standard toolbox too. 

[whart57]

Turns out there is a pic in John Scott Morgan's British Independent Light Railways

 

[sem34090]

From a personal perspective, I feel that (for a freelance company) it is best to start with standard designs purchased by a company of a similar size, or with a similar income. This, to me, suggests looking towards the likes of the Furness and M&GN.