Creating a believable freelance pre-Group company

[whart57]

Or abroad to regular buyers of British built and designed locomotives such as the Netherlands Rhine Railway and the Dutch State Railway (which incidentally was a private company set up to operate the lines built by the government)

[sem34090]

Right...

I will soon have the loco and tender bodies (sans handrails...) left over from my LSWR T3... what should I do with them? The tender is rather late, and I won't have the chassis. I suppose I could backdate it, but any other suggestions.

[whart57]

Suggestions as to what? I'm a bit confused about the pic of a Midland Compound and the words of a T3

[Annie]

The problem with Fowler's Midland creations is that they look like Fowler locomotives and nothing else.  You'd have to shave it right down to the running plate leaving behind the splashers and the lower part of the cab before you'd have something you could build on.

[sem34090]

I apologise,  I didn't make myself clear.

 

I have got a Hornby Midland Compound on order, or will have one on order, around which my model of the LSWR T3 will be built (in CAD). Once I have got the T3 printed, the 'compound' shells will be coming off of the chassis, and (not being a Midland or LMS modeller) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for the -now surplus- bodies for the tender and loco.

 

I rather liked the idea of converting them into either something from the LSWR, LBSCR, SECR or Freelance (Probably Surrey Junction Railway, or whatever I interpret its name as!), but as Annie points out Fowler locos are quite distinctive.

 

Looking at it I imagine the following will need to be changed for a freelance loco:

- Cab

- Smokebox

- Rear of footplate.

- Tender cutting down.

- Safety Valves changed (The ones on there will probably end up on a TVR U1 which itself may get absorbed into the SJR fleet...)

 

I have a few other bits and pieces which could substitute some of the above.

[whart57]

Ah, I thought you had this Compound and wanted to know what to do with it, chassis and all. I was going to suggest making something like this 2-4-0 out of it

 

 

 

The prototype was built in 1872 by Robert Stephenson & Co for the Netherlands Central Railway. It was reboilered in the 1880s and withdrawn in 1912.

 

You'd probably need to shorten the footplate though as the cylinders overhang the front axle by quite a way possibly not by much. You would need to flatten out the bit between the coupled wheels as that screams "Midland!". The boiler might need lowering a millimeter or two if possible but you might get away with a Belpaire firebox. You can't leave the smokebox door though, that again is too Midland. This loco has 6' drivers, I don't know what the Hornby loco has.

 

I can scan a drawing

Edited March 17, 2018 by whart57

[RedGemAlchemist]

 

Very much my sort of engine.

Also, how the hell did I miss this thread?

[FPH 603]

Very much my sort of engine.

Also, how the hell did I miss this thread?

Not checking the 'New Content' enough?

[RedGemAlchemist]

Not checking the 'New Content' enough?

Almost definitely.

Right then, I have some things to say then, being someone who works entirely in freelance territory.

 

My first fictional railway company history:

Feel free to criticize!

 

The Littlehampton, Goring & Worthing Railway

A complete history…

1: Background

The line known today as the Littlehampton, Goring & Worthing Railway (LG&WR) is first known to have been referred to as such in a timetable produced in 1863, soon after the opening of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway’s branch line to Littlehampton, but the line is known to have existed (In one form or another) from around the mid 1840’s, and believed to have commenced operations as the ‘Littlehampton Railway’ in around 1845, though this name is unconfirmed. The source of this information ^[1] states the following.

“The original 1840’s route of the Littlehampton Railway (later known as the Littlehampton, Goring and Worthing Railway) is believed to have come about as a result of the construction of the Brighton & Chichester Railway’s line to Worthing (from Shoreham) in 1845, and the wish of tradesmen in the villages to the West of Worthing to be connected to the railway. Although it was known that the B&CR planned to extend westwards towards Chichester and Portsmouth, the route did not serve Littlehampton or any of the smaller coastal settlements. The initial route ran from a small terminus towards the Southern end of Littlehampton Harbour, through several small stations at Rustington and East Preston and Goring & Ferring (Original Station, closed 1847) to a simple seafront terminus in Worthing itself. At this time there was no connection between the LGWR and B&CR stations in the town.”

 It was not long after the initial opening that the construction of a Northward branch through Ferring into Goring commenced, in order to connect to the B&CR line. The B&CR station was opened in March 1846, with the LGWR following in June that year, and it was here that the first link was made (Although plans had been made the previous year to build a line to link the two stations in Worthing they would not come to fruition until 1882 under a joint agreement with the LBSCR – see more further on) with the B&CR. The line remained virtually unchanged until the opening of the LBSCR Littlehampton branch in 1863, when a further connection was made to that company.

The final development of LGWR route mileage came in 1882, when (in a joint agreement with the LBSCR) authorisation was gained for a light street tramway to be constructed from the LGWR’s South Street terminus in Worthing, alongside Montague Street then along Crescent Road for 192 yards before crossing over an area of land adjacent to the house of the Sisters of Sion and the associated school. From here, the line crossed Gratwicke Road and Wykeham Road (the modern A259) before skirting the edge of Amelia Park along Norfolk Street. At the end of this road, the line crossed Howard Street and Tarring Road before curving round to join the LBSCR lines on the approach to Worthing (LBSCR) station. Initially the line was primarily LBSCR worked, with a shuttle service operating from platform four at Worthing (LBSC) to Worthing Seafront during the summer months. From 1905, the service became a regular haunt of railmotors and motor trains, often on an extended route to the local beauty spot at Findon.^[2]

The route was used extensively for internal and local military traffic during the First World War, leaving the LBSCR lines clear for through and long distance traffic which increased immensely during the conflict. This period saw extended use of LBSCR through stock to the various military establishments that existed in the area.

Upon the 1923 grouping, the company was absorbed into the Southern Railway, which immediately set about withdrawing the ageing and war-weary rolling stock of the independent company and replacing it with cascaded LBSCR stock. Having never proved especially profitable, but normally just about above breaking even, the passenger service was run down through the 1920’s, and these services had ceased by 1931. Goods services continued to remain just-about profitable, but the hit of the Wall Street Crash could be felt even in remotest parts of rural Sussex, and soon the line was making a definitive loss, struggling on through the 1930’s, until the outbreak of war in September 1939. At this stage, the line resumed the purpose that it had served 20 years previously during the Great War: diverting local traffic away from the main line through the area. It was because of this reprieve that the line was able to survive until 1952, when final closure beckoned.

 

2: Rolling Stock

Information on the original stock of the railway is scarce, but it is known that, in 1845, the company ordered three 0-4-0 and two 2-2-0 locomotives from Edward Bury and Company.

 

 

 

Although the 0-4-0’s were found to be a success, the 2-2-0’s suffered stability issues along the rather windswept coastal section between the Littlehampton terminus and East Preston station, and these were replaced as soon as 1847 by three 0-6-0 locomotives from Stothert, Slaughter & Company. These locomotives proved to be much better suited to the line’s requirements, and another pair were ordered later in 1847, relegating the 0-4-0’s to lighter duties. This locomotive fleet (By now numbering seven) continued to work the line into the 1850’s, being supplemented in 1859 by a second-hand E.B. Wilson ‘Jenny Lind’ 2-2-2 locomotive from the LBSCR, and in 1864, a pair Sharp, Stewart & Company 0-4-0 designs (of the design then being supplied to the Furness Railway) replaced the original Bury 0-4-0 locomotives.

This fleet of eight locomotives carried services through to the mid 1880’s, by which time the Stothert 0-6-0’s were very much life expired. These were replaced by four Manning Wardle 0-6-0ST locomotives, to the standard ‘L’ class design, in 1886.

Since its introduction in 1859, the ‘Jenny Lind’ 2-2-2 locomotive had handled most of the line’s passenger traffic and was beginning to wear out. Being to an outdated design, repairs were un-feasible, so replacement was the only option. The company therefore purchased two, modern design, 4-4-0 locomotives from Sharp, Stewart & Co in 1890.

Being very large locomotives (by LGWR standards!) these were not used much on the LGWR’s 7mile main line, and were sold (at near market value) to the Furness Railway in 1892. They were replaced by a triplet of much, much smaller manning Wardle 2-4-0T locos. Although of much lesser power and haulage capacity than the (somewhat over-powered) 4-4-0’s, these tiny locos proved very successful (as they had on the Milwall Extension Railway in East London) on the short-distance passenger trains the LGWR operated.

From this time the LGWR fleet stabilised, save for the acquisition of three Avonside 0-4-0ST’s in 1903, and the purchase of the GWR’s failed N^o 101 experiment in 1911. From 1906, the LBSCR introduced Railmotor services through the streets of Worthing to the seafront station of the LGWR during the summer seasons. At certain times, this service was extended to Findon, and was replaced by a class A1 + Motor Coach combination in 1907. By the outbreak of war, the LGWR fleet comprised of the following:

1, Littlehampton: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

2, Ferring: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

3, Goring: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

4, Worthing: Manning Wardle ‘L’ Class 0-6-0ST

5, Preston: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

6, Rustington: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

7, Duke of Norfolk: Manning Wardle 2-4-0T

8, King Edward: Avonside 0-4-0ST

9, Angmering: Avonside 0-4-0ST

10, Sussex: Avonside 0-4-0ST

11, ‘Westie’: GWR 0-4-0T

 

Note: for manning wardle 2-4-0T’s, search ‘Milwall extension railway’ or London and Blackwall Railway. A 3D Printed model can be purchased here: https://www.shapeways.com/product/XCQBT4X6D/pla-millwall-extension-railway-2-4-0t-kit?optionId=56769234

For the 4-4-0’s, search ‘Furness Railway K2’.

Sounds good. You've done an excellent job working everything out, sem. Admittedly I've been working more to the Colonel Stephens mentality with my own Kelsby Light Railway but I like it.

Also, I love the Manning Wardle tanks. I'll have to have a look at Shapeways when I get my next paycheck...

 

Ah, I thought you had this Compound and wanted to know what to do with it, chassis and all. I was going to suggest making something like this 2-4-0 out of it

 

NCS_13-15.jpg

 

 

The prototype was built in 1872 by Robert Stephenson & Co for the Netherlands Central Railway. It was reboilered in the 1880s and withdrawn in 1912.

 

You'd probably need to shorten the footplate though as the cylinders overhang the front axle by quite a way possibly not by much. You would need to flatten out the bit between the coupled wheels as that screams "Midland!". The boiler might need lowering a millimeter or two if possible but you might get away with a Belpaire firebox. You can't leave the smokebox door though, that again is too Midland. This loco has 6' drivers, I don't know what the Hornby loco has.

 

I can scan a drawing

Very nice little loco. Actually that brings up an interesting but slightly off topic point - has anyone noticed how many foreign locomotives are on our heritage railways? Not complaining, just find it interesting how that ended up.

Edited March 18, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[whart57]

As I said right at the beginning, I regard this as an armchair project, a bit of light relief from the craft knife and soldering iron. Therefore I can indulge in flights of fancy, and my latest is to try and draw up the pages from Bradshaw that apply to the London and Surrey Junction Railway. For those who have dived right in at page eight, the L&SJR is a fictitious 19th century railway company that, in an alternative history of the railways of Surrey, has lines that run from Redhill to Reading and from Mitcham Junction to Horsham, the two lines crossing and having a junction at Boxhill, a mile or so from Dorking. (The lines are real, one was an SER line and the other a LBSCR one). Additionally, by means of exercising running powers and getting involved in joint projects, the L&SJR has managed to get access to a London terminus – Victoria.

The date I am setting this project in is in 1891. Why 1891? Well from a personal perspective that was the year of my grandmother's birth, but also it suits my preference for a Victorian era rather than an Edwardian era railway. Most pre-Group modelling is set in the high Edwardian period for some very good reasons, but to me that period is just a more colourful version of the Big Four years. Go back twenty years and the way railways looked and worked was noticeably different. Many of the familiar features of the steam operated railway - standard loco classes, automatic brakes (at least on passenger trains), block semaphore signalling - were established in the 1890s, along with thing like RCH rules for inter-company freight and passenger traffic. Traffic volume and intensity of operation also increased hugely around the turn of the century

The way railways were used in the area my fictitional line runs through was also different. Commuting was in its infancy. There were “workmen’s trains”, but these were mostly close in to the big cities and were often a quid pro quo for the railway demolishing cheap housing as they drove their lines into the heart of cities. Commuting into London from stations on my L&SJR was thirty years and a World War away, commuter stations like Sutton and Carshalton were still serving small towns and villages in 1891.

Additionally, as the only transport competitors to railways all had a horse harnessed to the front of it, expectations for fast and frequent connections were low. Waits for connections at junctions measured in hours were common, and there were the same problems of booking on different companies we have today, but without the assistance of the internet and online ticket sales. A traveller might need that hour or two at the junction to locate the ticket office and buy a ticket for the next hop.

So what do we have?

 

Still a long way to go, but some things are becoming apparent. One is that Boxhill Junction becomes quite busy at times. Another is that I have had to think where the engine sheds are. Horsham obviously, and Reading too. However where should the main works be? At this stage I am imagining the main loco and carriage works being at Shalford, near Guildford. Historically there was iron working and the like in the area, the Wey and Arun canal is close and had the L&SJR managed to hook up with the Portsmouth Direct that would be close to a major junction on the joint system. Thus in the timetable there are trains starting from Shalford, and that is why.

 

I’m assuming that the L&SJR follows the usual practice of the time of assigning drivers their own locomotive. That being the case it would appear that my loco crews are working twelve or thirteen hour shifts. That seems about right for the period. They would only do that for 3-4 days though as their loco would need a day off for maintenance – cleaning out ash, replacing things, boiler washouts too given much of the line is in a hard water area. That would give the crew a short shift that day

I don’t envisage tank engines so loco turn arounds require time to get to a turntable. At the country ends I’m allowing at least thirty minutes and usually a lot more. The exception is at Guildford where I assume the loco has come tender first on the short hop from Shalford and just needs to run round. I’m guessing though that at Mitcham and Victoria things have to be turned round sharpish as the L&SJR trains can’t outstay their welcome in foreign parts. Presumably there is a turntable and minimal loco facilities available, somethng like Ewer Street or the West side of Cannon Street.

But this is all good fun.

Btw, the 'b' in the rows for Balham and Wandsworth Common point to a note in Bradshaw - "trains will stop to set down first class passengers after informing the guard at Mitcham Junction". Balham and Wandsworth - which were respectable middle class areas in the 1890s - would have been LBSCR stations where L&SJR trains were merely tolerated. Competition would not have been welcome, but then again, no railway company liked to offend its "quality" passengers.
 

 

[JimC]

At this stage I am imagining the main loco and carriage works being at Shalford,

 

For a what if of my own I imagined a running shed very unwisely sited on the flood plain at Peasmarsh, between the unused triangle from Shalford heading southwards and the Cranleigh line junction...

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by JimC

[RedGemAlchemist]

My own Kelsby Light Railway runs thus:

:through several miles of East Anglian countryside which IRL doesn't have a colossal amount in it (the map is meant to be general and is very, very rough.) Modern setting steam, basically in a "what if" scenario of "what if a Colonel Stephens style steam-driven light railway survived into the present day basically unchanged and not acting as a heritage line?" It's a stretch of the imagination, but it's good wholesome fun and gives me an excuse to build some fun locos.

 

Current roster:

 

No.1 Bulldog - Avonside 0-4-0 side tank (slight Nellie modification)

No.2 Wild Rover - GER S69 4-6-0 rebuilt into an 0-6-0 (Triang B12 bash)

No.3 Peter - Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0 saddle tank (incomplete, Pugbash)

No.4 Mastodon - Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0 side tank (Hornby Dublo 0-4-0 starter tank bashed into an 0-6-0)

No.5 Geoffrey Lake - NBR 0-6-0 side tank (Hornby Thomas bash on a Triang Jinty chassis)

No.6 Wanderer - GWR 14xx 0-4-2 side tank (Airfix 14xx repaint. Trust me, there's an "in world" story to it being there which I explained in full on my Workbench thread)

Edited March 22, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[whart57]

Well those who are fans of the Colonel might find this interesting

 

Layouts for 21st Century Living - stephens.pdf

 

Once upon a time I tried to pull together a collection of layout plans that would demonstrate how 3mm scale was suited to the sort of spaces we have in modern houses. (Modern in this sense being anything built before around 1990 and the complete shredding of any standards for minimum room sizes). This was the only one completed.

 

It is possible to build a Ford railbus in 3mm scale, though it is very light and skittish and thus sensitive to dirty track

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RedGemAlchemist]

Well those who are fans of the Colonel might find this interesting

 

Layouts for 21st Century Living - stephens.pdf

 

Once upon a time I tried to pull together a collection of layout plans that would demonstrate how 3mm scale was suited to the sort of spaces we have in modern houses. (Modern in this sense being anything built before around 1990 and the complete shredding of any standards for minimum room sizes). This was the only one completed.

 

It is possible to build a Ford railbus in 3mm scale, though it is very light and skittish and thus sensitive to dirty track

 

Railbus01.JPG

 

DSCN8241.JPG

Hmm. Interesting.

Though my current house is far from modern. I live in a converted farmhouse from 1670. My layout will be in the shed (originally a stable.)

So yeah, if it's sensitive to dirty track this is probably not the best place for it.

Edited March 21, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[whart57]

Today I was idly looking at mid-19th century OS maps of Victoria station. Thanks to the National Library of Scotland they are on line and we can make use of our heritage of sound map making. What I found was that it is quite feasible to treat the westernmost end of the station as a single unit and model it as a Minories style layout. It would basically be a single island (peninsular?) platform with tracks either side. Both sides would have an engine release loop as well, these were in the real 1880s Victoria, and -oh joy! - a turntable squeezed in just before the Ecclestone Road bridge. The pointwork is what you'd expect for making both platform roads available to both up and down trains and in the late 19th century there was space for the odd carriage siding and a separate approach from Battersea.

[NCB]

IIRC only the Midland and the Great Northern imported American locos and neither had any great success with them. Their light bar-framed construction not being up to the job for the work required of them.

 

Jim

 

Nope, quite a few others did as well. Some appeared in South Wales, e.g. the Barry Railway class K 0-6-2T. Built 1899, withdrawn between 1928 and 1932. Not a bad life, and the GW couldn't have thought too badly of them.

[sem34090]

Hmm... not come across these before.

 

A strange combination of British and American practice, as opposed to the Midland and the Great Northern locos which had a distinctly American outline. On the Barry loco, the cylinder arrangement has a particularly American look to it.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Hmm... not come across these before.

 

A strange combination of British and American practice, as opposed to the Midland and the Great Northern locos which had a distinctly American outline. On the Barry loco, the cylinder arrangement has a particularly American look to it.

Wow. Looks like it could have been one of my more off-the-wall design ideas.

[whart57]

An hour playing with Anyrail and here is Victoria (Surrey Railway side) as a Minories style layout

 

 

This would be where platforms 17 and 18 are today, over by Buckingham Palace Road. The turntable is in the right place for the 1880s, though the stabling spurs wouldn't have fitted. For a model railway though ......

 

The dotted lines is the adjoining LBSCR platform, just to make the station seem bigger

[whart57]

Just for reference, here is part of the 25" OS map published in 1878

 

 

Looking through some of the other maps, in the early 20th century the platforms at that end were lengthened and the turntable moved a hundred yards or so south to the other side of Ecclestone Road. On the 1913 map that's where it is with a lot more sidings to stable engines on. Still there in the 1950s despite wholesale electrification of the Southern's suburban network

[RedGemAlchemist]

Just for reference, here is part of the 25" OS map published in 1878

 

Screenshot from 2018-03-23 13-56-26.png

 

Looking through some of the other maps, in the early 20th century the platforms at that end were lengthened and the turntable moved a hundred yards or so south to the other side of Ecclestone Road. On the 1913 map that's where it is with a lot more sidings to stable engines on. Still there in the 1950s despite wholesale electrification of the Southern's suburban network

Interesting. Never actually been to Victoria Station, but it's always interesting to see station layouts from years ago to see how they've changed.

[whart57]

It gets better. I found a better map, and one that appeared originally in Railway Magazine so is more railway oriented

 

 

Note the mixed gauge rails for GWR broad gauge trains. I don't know when they were taken up, probably when the GWR abandoned broad gauge. The GWR used Victoria up until about 1915 for some suburban services.

 

Apparently the rebuilding of the Brighton side started in the mid 1890s, so after my 1891 date.

Edited March 23, 2018 by whart57

[RedGemAlchemist]

It gets better. I found a better map, and one that appeared originally in Railway Magazine so is more railway oriented

 

Victoria_1869.jpg

 

Note the mixed gauge rails for GWR broad gauge trains. I don't know when they were taken up, probably when the GWR abandoned broad gauge. The GWR used Victoria up until about 1915 for some suburban services.

 

Apparently the rebuilding of the Brighton side started in the mid 1890s, so after my 1891 date.

Hmm. Very interesting indeed. Look forward to seeing what you end up with reflecting this new information.

[Annie]

It gets better. I found a better map, and one that appeared originally in Railway Magazine so is more railway oriented

 

Victoria_1869.jpg

 

Note the mixed gauge rails for GWR broad gauge trains. I don't know when they were taken up, probably when the GWR abandoned broad gauge. The GWR used Victoria up until about 1915 for some suburban services.

 

Apparently the rebuilding of the Brighton side started in the mid 1890s, so after my 1891 date.

Ah t'was a grim weekend when that occurred.  A wretched and most terrible loss  

 

[whart57]

Though considering the size of things the South Africans put on meter gauge you have to conclude that it's not the distance between the rails but the space around the tracks that is the issue for us in Britain now. It's also worth mentioning that the Malaysians have introduced a high speed train service from Kuala Lumpur to the Thai border, and the Thais are planning high speed services from there to Bangkok and then on to Laos. All on meter gauge.