leopardml2341 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hello folks, As the subject asks really. If when using a live chassis with only one set of insulated wheels, is there an accepted norm which determines the 'side' to which these are fitted? Let's establish left hand and right hand being as viewed from the cab looking toward the smoke box. Rgds, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Google "american system". Im sure there is a convention. Would need to dig out one of my old tender locos to be sure. I did research it at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Live wheels on offside tender nearside loco. Remember researching this when I built my first tender loco in the early 90s. Just found John Ahern miniature locomotive construction. Pg 40."accepted practice is for wheels on left side of loco to be insulated" Maybe I got it wrong....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Live wheels on offside tender nearside loco. Remember researching this when I built my first tender loco in the early 90s. Just found John Ahern miniature locomotive construction. Pg 40."accepted practice is for wheels on left side of loco to be insulated" Maybe I got it wrong....... Hi All, Guess which way round I have built my 72XX. Clue: it’s not as above... It’s not often I’m right but there I was wrong again. Oh well... All the best, Castle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2018 Hello folks, As the subject asks really. If when using a live chassis with only one set of insulated wheels, is there an accepted norm which determines the 'side' to which these are fitted? Let's establish left hand and right hand being as viewed from the cab looking toward the smoke box. Rgds, Does it matter? I suppose there are some modellers who will standardise which side they prefer/think is right. Left their own devices many will not be too bothered. I find if I have "got it wrong" and my loco runs opposite to the others I simply swap the wires on the motor. Despite not making a fix chassis loco for a long time the last few I done had insulated wheels both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2018 from NMRA Standard S9 Pick-up-two-rail: Engines should be grounded to the right-hand-rail. ... Diesel and electric double-truck engines foremost truck conduct current from right-hand rail. Recommend both trucks insulated from frame. also Positive potential on ... the right-hand rail shall produce forward motion. There are several lines saying that the couplers should be insulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podhunter Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Does it matter? It matters if you want to create 'consists' (a.k.a. double-heading) and there's a risk of two locos connecting electrically. If both locos have live chassis then there's a possibility that the two could short-circuit the power supply if they touch. That's why some advocate insulated couplings. However, there remains a risk that metal buffers could connect on sharp curves. A loco chassis doesn't have to be live. If all wheels are insulated, with pick-ups both sides, then the above possibilities are eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert17649 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 most of my building locos is on the crude but effective principle. Although I have followed the left hand insulated right hand live on a number of locos I have had much better results using insulated wheels all round and pick ups on both sides, I think I would plumb for that , it is only a matter of another wire anyway , and solves the occasional problem of chassis shorting to a metal bodied loco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) Thanks for your replies everyone. Does it matter? I suppose there are some modellers who will standardise which side they prefer/think is right. Left their own devices many will not be too bothered. I find if I have "got it wrong" and my loco runs opposite to the others I simply swap the wires on the motor. Despite not making a fix chassis loco for a long time the last few I done had insulated wheels both sides. Yes it does matter, to me at least, for the reasons 'Podhunter' notes above. I know insulated wheels all round would be better, but it just so happens that I'm upgrading a chassis built years ago,as a test bed for some EM stuff and the model won't feature in my final stock roster so I don't really want to go the expense of buying new wheels. I'll go with the NMRA standard S9, thanks especially to David (BR60103) above for that information. Edited February 22, 2018 by leopardml2341 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffer Davies Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 It matters if you want to create 'consists' (a.k.a. double-heading) and there's a risk of two locos connecting electrically. If both locos have live chassis then there's a possibility that the two could short-circuit the power supply if they touch. That's why some advocate insulated couplings. However, there remains a risk that metal buffers could connect on sharp curves. A loco chassis doesn't have to be live. If all wheels are insulated, with pick-ups both sides, then the above possibilities are eliminated. My advice based on many years of modelling is that it really doesn’t matter which side is live but if you have any concerns the sensible thing is to adopt a standard and then stick to it and if you are nervous isolate the frames from the superstructure and any metal couplings to be on the safe side. I use the American pickup system extensively and always isolate a tender’s frames from it’s superstructure so as to avoid the metal fall plate shorting between the loco and tender which would otherwise be at opposite electrical potentials. I haven’t bothered isolating any loco’s frames from their superstructure but I rarely double head loco’s so the problem is unlikely to occur anyway on Hungerford which is the layout my models run on. As long as the loco’s are facing the same way, by being consistent with the side that is live if you do double head the problem (a dead short) still won’t arise. Regards, Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) It matters if you want to create 'consists' (a.k.a. double-heading) and there's a risk of two locos connecting electrically. If both locos have live chassis then there's a possibility that the two could short-circuit the power supply if they touch. That's why some advocate insulated couplings. However, there remains a risk that metal buffers could connect on sharp curves. A loco chassis doesn't have to be live. If all wheels are insulated, with pick-ups both sides, then the above possibilities are eliminated. Ah!! You see my down fall is I build ridged framed diesel shunters. I make the bodies out of plastic card so I have not encountered shorting trough the body. So hadn't considered it. I have few metal bodied locos which to date I haven't had any problem with. What happens if the locos are both facing opposite directions surely that means they can short out on each other if they touch and there are of photos where two tank locos are hauling a train bunker to bunker? I did adopt all wheels insulated for better electrical conductivity. I found with the short wheel base the axles would slide side ways, and on a six coupled loco you need a small amount of side ways movement and if that movement was on the insulated and pick up side the pick up could loose contact with the wheel. With both sides having a slight springiness the sideways movement seems better controlled and contact is maintained. Edited February 22, 2018 by Clive Mortimore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Like Frank, I too isolate the tender chassis with 10 thou plastikard. ,as I prepare one or two locos for dcc it might be an idea to do the same to the loco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 I seem to remember many years ago there was put forward the idea that the 'right way was insulated' in other words the right hand side had the pick-ups on a live chassis and most people followed that so when double heading it wasn't a problem unless you turn one loco round. Later I used all insulated with nice light pick-ups and things ran much better as the power didn't have to go through an oily axlebox. I just don't like the American system as I feel it's a waste not having pick-ups on the heaviest wheels i.e. the drivers. If you do the pick-ups right the slight increase in drag is better than only half the amount of wheels picking up, in my humble opinion. Dave Franks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 ....... as the power didn't have to go through an oily axlebox. Dave Franks. I intend to fit wiper pickups to both sets of wheels, even though one set is live, because as Dave says above the 'oily axlebox can get in the way of good electrical conductivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 I just went down and looked at my Wrenn and TriAng locos -- they all have the insulated wheels on the right hand side. Of course, the wheels don't match NMRA standards either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2018 If you are thinking about going dcc insulate the chassis and pick up off all Wheels. The more pick ups the better, non insulated wheels aren't as conductive as people think they are Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 I just went down and looked at my Wrenn and TriAng locos -- they all have the insulated wheels on the right hand side. Of course, the wheels don't match NMRA standards either. And I thought I'd made a decision in post #9 You're just trying to tip me over the edge now David If you are thinking about going dcc insulate the chassis and pick up off all Wheels. The more pick ups the better, non insulated wheels aren't as conductive as people think they are Baz Baz, being awake that late (or early) ain't good for you, see post #14...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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