Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Compound2632]

I like Mid Suffolk No. 4. The self-contained buffers suggest that it was originally dumb buffered.

[Annie]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I like Mid Suffolk No. 4. The self-contained buffers suggest that it was originally dumb buffered.

I'm fairly sure it was and if I can manage to do it I'd like to build it in that form.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

I'm fairly sure it was and if I can manage to do it I'd like to build it in that form.

 

Is anything known about where the Mid Suffolk got its original rolling stock? (That is to say, a quick bit of googling has been uninformative!) Given the fragile state of the company's finances, I imagine it was mostly bought second-hand from a dealer, so the supposed conversion of No. 4 from dumb to self-contained buffers was probably carried out before the wagon was delivered to the Middy.  

[NeilHB]

IIRC it was a mix of second-hand stock, and some wagons inherited from the contractor. I'll dig out the WSP book later and double check. 

[Annie]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is anything known about where the Mid Suffolk got its original rolling stock? (That is to say, a quick bit of googling has been uninformative!) Given the fragile state of the company's finances, I imagine it was mostly bought second-hand from a dealer, so the supposed conversion of No. 4 from dumb to self-contained buffers was probably carried out before the wagon was delivered to the Middy.  

 

There was some new construction as well as purchases of second hand rolling stock through a dealer.  Mr. H. R. Gillingwater the Middy's superintendent placed orders for new built cattle wagons and brake van to his own designs, - though the cattle vans were frank copies of GER cattle vans and the brake a copy of a MR brake van.

Messrs. G.R. Turner Ltd is a dealer often mentioned and purchases of renovated second hand rolling stock were made through this firm including some ex-MET coaches.  They also seemed to have undertaken repairs of Middy rolling stock as well and could undertake new construction.

The Middy preservation society have a kitbashed from a much later 3 plank wagon semi-replica of No.4 and they've done it with dumb buffers

 

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Annie said:

Messrs. G.R. Turner Ltd is a dealer often mentioned and purchases of renovated second hand rolling stock were made through this firm including some ex-MET coaches.

 

A well known wagon building and hiring firm of Langley Mill, Derbyshire, so not surprising they also dabbled in second-hand dealing. 

 

The firm had a distinctive maker's plate:

 

 

Though this wouldn't, I think, be seen on second-hand stock passing through their hands.

 

28 minutes ago, Annie said:

There was some new construction as well as purchases of second hand rolling stock through a dealer.  Mr. H. R. Gillingwater the Middy's superintendent placed orders for new built cattle wagons and brake van to his own designs, - though the cattle vans were frank copies of GER cattle vans and the brake a copy of a MR brake van.

 

The preservationists have produced a simulacrum of MSLR goods brake No. 2 using the body of a Midland brake van. I'm curious to know if the original(s) really were new built or actual second-hand Midland vehicles, since the Midland sold off a number of 10-ton goods brakes in this period, Chiefly to the dealer J.F. Wake of Darlington, though also some to R.Y. Pickering & Co. At least one went to the Wemyss Private Railway, a colliery line in Fife:

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A well known wagon building and hiring firm of Langley Mill, Derbyshire, so not surprising they also dabbled in second-hand dealing. 

 

The firm had a distinctive maker's plate:

 

 

Though this wouldn't, I think, be seen on second-hand stock passing through their hands.

 

 

The preservationists have produced a simulacrum of MSLR goods brake No. 2 using the body of a Midland brake van. I'm curious to know if the original(s) really were new built or actual second-hand Midland vehicles, since the Midland sold off a number of 10-ton goods brakes in this period, Chiefly to the dealer J.F. Wake of Darlington, though also some to R.Y. Pickering & Co. At least one went to the Wemyss Private Railway, a colliery line in Fife:

 

Thanks for the picture of G R Turner's makers plate and the additional details.

 

From GER Journal No.28 Page 15

Quote

"The Locomotive" for June 15th, 1907 presented an article
on the Mid-SLR, which stated that a (i.e. one) MR type goods
brake van was built by Messrs. G. R. Turner Ltd. of Langley
Mills, Nottinghamshire, and the accompanying photograph
(reproduced courtesy Ian Allen Ltd.) shows that it was built in
1906 to Order L1276, and numbered 2.

Not the best picture unfortunately.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Annie
More words needed.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Annie said:

 

A nicely-observed piece of 12"/ft modelling on the part of the people at Langley Mill - who of course had the Midland's Erewash Valley line with its steady flow of mineral trains passing alongside the works. I see Turner's distinctive builder's plate there!

[Annie]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A nicely-observed piece of 12"/ft modelling on the part of the people at Langley Mill - who of course had the Midland's Erewash Valley line with its steady flow of mineral trains passing alongside the works. I see Turner's distinctive builder's plate there!

No doubt a quick nip over the fence with a measuring tape and a notebook when nobody was about.

[CKPR]

I know the advice is 'never model a model', but might be worth having look at Ian Rice's articles in Model Railways on his 'East Suffolk Light Railway' as this was clearly a homage to the MSLR (and included the MSLR's conversation of an MR open wagon to a covered van). 

[Annie]

9 hours ago, CKPR said:

I know the advice is 'never model a model', but might be worth having look at Ian Rice's articles in Model Railways on his 'East Suffolk Light Railway' as this was clearly a homage to the MSLR (and included the MSLR's conversation of an MR open wagon to a covered van). 

 Once upon a time long ago I had a copy of a railway modelling magazine that had a drawing of that famous covered van, but who knows where it is now.  Most of my old railway magazine collection got drowned when my garage flooded in a storm not long after I moved here to the Waikato.  I might be on high ground, but a deluge from the street above my property decided to divert itself through the back wall of my garage and made a right mess.

The patchy old photo from the GER Society Journal should be good enough to give me a guide to make a replica though.

 

From Martin S-C of this parish.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Annie
fumble brain

[Annie]

 

Found a copy of this that wasn't the gold leaf edition or would require me to sell a kidney in order to afford it.  The prices some traders are asking for Iain Rice's books are downright unbelievable.  Once again World of Books was able to help me out.  Most of my out of print railway books have been purchased from them.

[CKPR]

Funny isn't? In the 1980s - 90s, Ian Rice's books and D&S kits were seemingly ubiquitous at model railway shows in the UK and now they're like gold dust. Luckily, I have copies of these books and pretty much all of the NER and NBR wagons produced by D&S, most of which are still available from Wizard/51L (though not the GER range, which seems to be the real loss). 

Edited September 21, 2022 by CKPR

[Annie]

31 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Funny isn't? In the 1980s - 90s, Ian Rice's books and D&S kits were seemingly ubiquitous at model railway shows in the UK and now they're like gold dust.

True enough.  I can remember back then that most hobby shops and my favourite of all, - a wonderful bookshop named 'Technical Books', - would have Ian Rice's books on display.  'Light Railway Layout Designs' is about the only one I would want to buy now since most of my railway library consists of books on light railways or minor lines; - apart from the Broad Gauge ones, - which should come as no surprise.

[Annie]

Afternoon Cheer Up Picture:  Still a favourite picture.  Johnston No.1 Class 2-4-0 No.47 at Swaffham Station sometime before 1910.

I had a bad day or two with not being well so that's why I haven't been here lately.

 

 

[Annie]

Once again I do not know where this is*, - but I like juxtaposition** of the diverse scenic elephants elements and the way they create a pleasing tableaux.

 

 

* Never ask me to be your navigator.

**Good word that.

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Annie said:

Once again I do not know where this is*, - but I like juxtaposition** of the diverse scenic elephants elements and the way they create a pleasing tableaux.

 

 

* Never ask me to be your navigator.

**Good word that.

 

Most happily it looks rather like a (very good) model railway to me. 

 

But, yes, that's a scene to keep in one's back pocket for future modelling. 

 

[NeilHB]

I suspect it may be somewhere in Burton on Trent, though that's purely from the Ind Coope and Allsopp sign painted on the end and the mention of Worthington's Ales. 

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, NeilHB said:

I suspect it may be somewhere in Burton on Trent, though that's purely from the Ind Coope and Allsopp sign painted on the end and the mention of Worthington's Ales. 

 

I was puzzling that, because the stone viaduct was suggesting "North", yet the beers were suggesting "Burton", whereas the inset track could be Burton, its combination with distance cranes suggested "docks".

 

The problem with Burton ales is, thanks to the Midland Railway, they got all over the place.  

 

6 hours ago, Annie said:

Afternoon Cheer Up Picture:  Still a favourite picture.  Johnston No.1 Class 2-4-0 No.47 at Swaffham Station sometime before 1910.

I had a bad day or two with not being well so that's why I haven't been here lately.

 

 

 

What a wonderful picture.

 

I am sorry you've not been so bright. I hope we can provide some mild entertainment as you hopefully recover.

[Annie]

10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Most happily it looks rather like a (very good) model railway to me. 

 

But, yes, that's a scene to keep in one's back pocket for future modelling. 

That's what I couldn't make up my mind about, - whether it was a real world photo, - or a part of a seriously excellent model railway.  Either way it's a great scene and I still have in mind a street running layout based on the line to the Worcester Vinegar Works so I'm sure I could squeeze a scene like this in somewhere.

 

9 minutes ago, NeilHB said:

I suspect it may be somewhere in Burton on Trent, though that's purely from the Ind Coope and Allsopp sign painted on the end and the mention of Worthington's Ales. 

Yes I was beginning to suspect that might be so Neil, but if I do a street running branchline I'd want it to be GWR so I can use my '850' and 'Buffalo' saddle tanks so I'd have to change pub details & etc about to suit.

 

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I was puzzling that, because the stone viaduct was suggesting "North", yet the beers were suggesting "Burton", whereas the inset track could be Burton, its combination with distance cranes suggested "docks".

 

The problem with Burton ales is, thanks to the Midland Railway, they got all over the place.  

 

Despite modelling the Midland during my late teens and early twenties I really don't want to get myself distracted in that direction since I have enough to do already with my GER and GWR interests.  I only did all those D299 5 plank wagons because a member of the creator group asked me to, not because I was wanting to sneak off to where the red engines live.

The cranes in the distance had me a bit confused as well since that meant 'docks' and I don't think Burton-on-Trent had any.

 

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

What a wonderful picture.

 

I am sorry you've not been so bright. I hope we can provide some mild entertainment as you hopefully recover.

It was a couple of bad days with post-COVID symptoms James.  I'm starting to feel a little better now, but I'm having to sleep a lot.  I'm not so brain foggy now which is something.

 

Yes it's a great old photograph. One of those Johnston No.1 class 2-4-0T 's is an engine I wouldn't mind having in my collection.

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

 

It was a couple of bad days with post-COVID symptoms James.  I'm starting to feel a little better now, but I'm having to sleep a lot.  I'm not so brain foggy now which is something.

 

I'm sorry for that, but glad you are unfogging.

 

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

Yes it's a great old photograph. One of those Johnston No.1 class 2-4-0T 's is an engine I wouldn't mind having in my collection.

 

Nice detail of a Type 5, I guess, Third to the left. Lovely family group on the platform.

 

I just love the No.1 Class, though. 

[Annie]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Lovely family group on the platform.

Yes everytime I look at that photo I wonder who they all are.

[Hroth]

13 minutes ago, Annie said:

The cranes in the distance had me a bit confused as well since that meant 'docks' and I don't think Burton-on-Trent had any.

 

Any waterside cranes in Burton on Trent wouuld be titchy "goods yard" sized affairs alongside the Trent and Mersey canal, those do look too grand!  Of course before the railways came, the output of the Burton breweries would have been carried by canal narrowboats to far off destinations...

[Annie]

9 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Any waterside cranes in Burton on Trent wouuld be titchy "goods yard" sized affairs alongside the Trent and Mersey canal, those do look too grand!  Of course before the railways came, the output of the Burton breweries would have been carried by canal narrowboats to far off destinations...

Yes that's what I thought.  Those cranes in the background of the photo look like serious pieces of kit like you'd find hoisting things into sea-going vessels.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

Once again I do not know where this is*, - but I like juxtaposition** of the diverse scenic elephants elements and the way they create a pleasing tableaux.

 

 

* Never ask me to be your navigator.

**Good word that.

 

Swansea, it's Swansea.

 

I thought, "the stone viaduct either means the North, or, possibly, the West"

 

So, I thought I'd start with ports in the west and decided to start with Swansea as I recalled there was an elevated section of the GWR there.

 

I struck lucky:

 

 

Link