2-8-2s on the Welsh Highland?

[rockershovel]

I was reminded of the South African 2-8-2s brought to the Welsh Highland. I was much impressed with initial reports of these imposing beasts but they don’t seem to be making much progress, the Garratts seem to be the mainstay there.

 

Does anyone know about these locos? Are they likely to see use?

[009 micro modeller]

I believe the plan is to use the NG15s and see if they can handle the same loadings as the NGG16s but more efficiently. This is what I was given to understand from talking to someone involved with the Welsh Highland although I'm not sure what timescale there is for this. I'm afraid I don't know the specifics of it but I think it is to do with efficiency vs the Garratts. As reported a few months ago in Narrow Gauge World the Ffestiniog is looking at getting almost everything into working order in future including Mountaineer as well, but excluding some more historic locos where restoration would destroy originality.

[ngtrains.com]

You are asking questions that are likely to get some strong reactions from people involved and I am not going to open that can of worms but briefly it goes like this.

 

There are two NG15's on the WHR. One is currently being worked on as a volunteer led project and its making slow progress. There is a sh!t load of politics around that but the main limitations are a lack of workshop space and capacity to do the parts that need support from the railways workshops.

 

The railway is committed to NGG16's for now with a need to get into a position where there are ideally four of them. Two in traffic, a hot spare and one under overhaul.  At the moment there are three. Those three all come due for 10 year boiler overhauls in an annual succession each requiring work that can't be done in house in a year. Luckily the boilers of at least the later built ones are interchangeable and there are two spares. The spares have been moved to two outside contractors for overhaul and rebuild. it looks like the boiler ex 143 (its got 140's on at the moment IIRC) may be scrap - its one of those financial see saws - cost of repair vs new one and the other is the one that came from Australia.  There is currenly about a £million that's going to be spent on Garratt boilers. 

 

If I have this right 87 runs for this season and then comes out for 10 yr overhaul and its boiler has to be overhauled and put back on it. As one of the earlier Cockerill built ones i am not certain its interchangeable. Now with just 10 years service since being restored you migth think it would not need much but by the time it comes out of traffic it will have run 110,000 miles in that 10 years.  Hopefully, by the time 87 comes out of traffic newly restored 130 should be ready. It has a new build boiler which may be the pattern for other new ones once some experience with it has been gained.  That still just gives three and by the time 87 is back 143 will be in for its 10yr job with an exchange boiler followed by 138. At the moment there are four NGG16's in the shed at Dinas  87/138/143 available or receiving their winter maintenance and 130 being erected. The bogies went under the cradle for the first time recently. That pretty well fills Dinas up but then it gets even fuller as part of the shed is being used as a fabrication bay for carriage bodies with the railway building roughly two new carriages a year (another £1/2 Million invested) and also doing some outside contract fabrication work that brings in some cash.

 

The carriage and fabrication work has been done at Dinas because Boston Lodge has run out of space. As well as mainaining the fleet Boston Lodge is building boilers in its fabrication bay whilst undergoing £4.5M worth of re-development

 

So to summarise.  For the company it makes sense to stick with what is known to work, NGG16's, for now and the workshop space plus significant investment is dedicated to this with the works paid staff working on the four NGG16's five days a week. Typically as of about now, two will be available for traffic, one on maintenance and 130 being erected for the first time.  These are big things so you can't really put them out of the way one weekend a month for a volunteer project to work on their engine two day a month.

 

Space for volunteer run/worked projects is an issue at both DInas and Boston Lodge and there are long term plans that should improve things but they are long term with a lot of behind the scenes or less attractive work needing to happen first. By way of an example last year saw the erection of the first new building in the grand scheme at Boston Lodge known as the heritage carriage shed but prior to that has been three or four years of expensive but less noticeable stuff like the new access road, new drains, new sceptic tank with oil sperarators and so on. 

 

The NGG15's time will come but not just yet.

[rockershovel]

Thanks for that. I wasn’t aware of the detail but I’d gathered the overall picture - that the Garratt fleet was the mainstay of the line, and receiving the majority of resources for that reason.

 

I’d also noticed that the C2 Project website was updated regularly and often, in quite a lot of detail. Is this loco intended for traffic?

[brack]

There's also a high degree of interchangeability between the ngg16s, even though they come from different sources. I wonder if FR management aren't looking towards a similar situation to the double Fairlie one, with relatively easily swappable subassemblies (power bogies, boilers) making it easy to swap parts out of a loco for heavier work whilst keeping the engine pretty much in traffic - I believe the eventual idea with the fairlies is to have a spare set of bogies. Whatever advantages an NG15 might bring (chiefly variety of power for visitors, but it ought to be simpler to maintain) it is unlikely to override having a fleet of 4 (or 5) relatively standardised locos where boilers and power bogies can be swapped.

I may be wrong on all of this though - ngtrains is somewhat closer to things at Boston lodge than I am.

[ngtrains.com]

 

I wonder if FR management aren't looking towards a similar situation to the double Fairlie one, with relatively easily swappable subassemblies (power bogies, boilers) making it easy to swap parts out of a loco for heavier work whilst keeping the engine pretty much in traffic

 

 In a word yes -  already been doing that for as long as we've had them. IIRC 143 currently has the kettle from 140, musical bogies have happened and for a brief while the then black one had a green end.

The aim with sending two boilers away now is to have a pool repaired ones ready to go in when the in service ones become due their 10 year. The boilers that have gone away are the one that came off 143 and its looking to be at the point where the money says a new one is better value the other one is off the one being restored on the Puffing Billy in Australia - 129 - as they have had a new welded boiler made. Its apparently `not too bad' but boiler repair cost are unidirectional, they only ever go up.

 

C2 is privately owned by a consortium of FR Volunteers and is intended for traffic at the completion of its extensive rebuild. The key difference is that the first thing they did towards the rebuild once they got it to the UK was to build and pay for a building in which to do the ovehaul. That approach probably wouldn't work with the NG15, it being a company owned loco, but that is the essence of the requirement -  a shed where they can get on with it as and when they can work. However, its not as simple as some kind benefactor buying them a shed it needs to be near the machine shop facilites, either at Boston Lodge or Dinas but space at both locations is at a premium

[rockershovel]

The C2 website is really quite interesting, it gives a much more “rounded” view of what is actually involved in a restoration of that sort, than usually available.

 

Mention of the Cockerill-built Garratt reminds me of a local urban legend, which happens to be mostly true. Some years ago, the Nene Valley Railway became host to a project to convert a Cockerill 0-4-0WT to a replica of an LNER tram engine. The actual loco appears to have been in relatively good condition, but due to the principal members involved passing away, and the death of Rev Awdry, the project has long since stalled for lack of funds. It’s rather a shame, considering that the railway has long owned what might be considered “the original Thomas” and a genuine Wisbech and Upwell coach exists, fully restored (but no use for traffic, due to its various steps and end platforms) at the North Norfolk Railway.

[sir douglas]

there is website for the restoration, progress is slow but there is progress

 

http://ng15-134.co.uk/Restoration/WPNews.html

[Covkid]

 In a word yes -  already been doing that for as long as we've had them. IIRC 143 currently has the kettle from 140, musical bogies have happened and for a brief while the then black one had a green end.

The aim with sending two boilers away now is to have a pool repaired ones ready to go in when the in service ones become due their 10 year. The boilers that have gone away are the one that came off 143 and its looking to be at the point where the money says a new one is better value the other one is off the one being restored on the Puffing Billy in Australia - 129 - as they have had a new welded boiler made. Its apparently `not too bad' but boiler repair cost are unidirectional, they only ever go up.

 

C2 is privately owned by a consortium of FR Volunteers and is intended for traffic at the completion of its extensive rebuild. The key difference is that the first thing they did towards the rebuild once they got it to the UK was to build and pay for a building in which to do the ovehaul. That approach probably wouldn't work with the NG15, it being a company owned loco, but that is the essence of the requirement -  a shed where they can get on with it as and when they can work. However, its not as simple as some kind benefactor buying them a shed it needs to be near the machine shop facilites, either at Boston Lodge or Dinas but space at both locations is at a premium

 

Thanks for the info, probably best not mention NGG16 No 109, but is there any space at Glan y Pwll for undercover restoration work, should volunteers want to take 133 or 134 there ?   

[009 micro modeller]

Mention of the Cockerill-built Garratt reminds me of a local urban legend, which happens to be mostly true. Some years ago, the Nene Valley Railway became host to a project to convert a Cockerill 0-4-0WT to a replica of an LNER tram engine. The actual loco appears to have been in relatively good condition, but due to the principal members involved passing away, and the death of Rev Awdry, the project has long since stalled for lack of funds. It’s rather a shame, considering that the railway has long owned what might be considered “the original Thomas” and a genuine Wisbech and Upwell coach exists, fully restored (but no use for traffic, due to its various steps and end platforms) at the North Norfolk Railway.

I remember reading about that somewhere. I got the impression from comments on one of the forums that some people who might have supported it were put off because it wouldn't be a 'proper', mechanically similar replica. I quite like the idea though and I'm sure it would be a nice loco and a reminder of the Wisbech locos even if not totally accurate (and probably much cheaper than building a proper replica from the ground up).

[ngtrains.com]

 

but is there any space at Glan y Pwll for undercover restoration work

 

Already in use by a group restoring infrastructure wagons. However, beyond a roof it has very, very limited facilities. Having used it as a base to strip Blanche's old boiler off 20+ years ago when it had a few more facilites than it has now I wouldn't recommend it. We lost count of the miles we did back and forth the Boston Lodge for tools and equipment that  we needed for a relatively simple dismantle and boiler lift. Also its not very big, an NG15 chassis, if it fitted would fill the place thus excluding any other users.

[Covkid]

Already in use by a group restoring infrastructure wagons. However, beyond a roof it has very, very limited facilities. Having used it as a base to strip Blanche's old boiler off 20+ years ago when it had a few more facilites than it has now I wouldn't recommend it. We lost count of the miles we did back and forth the Boston Lodge for tools and equipment that  we needed for a relatively simple dismantle and boiler lift. Also its not very big, an NG15 chassis, if it fitted would fill the place thus excluding any other users.

 

 

Thanks Paul.  I kinda guessed as much

[rockershovel]

I remember reading about that somewhere. I got the impression from comments on one of the forums that some people who might have supported it were put off because it wouldn't be a 'proper', mechanically similar replica. I quite like the idea though and I'm sure it would be a nice loco and a reminder of the Wisbech locos even if not totally accurate (and probably much cheaper than building a proper replica from the ground up).

Well, indeed. Why not just restore the thing? But hidden under the “shed” it would all be one... one of the original diesel locomotives survives in preservation, if you want to be strictly accurate. The Wisbech and Upwell was, in fact, the first line in Britain to be worked entirely by diesel traction.

[009 micro modeller]

Well, indeed. Why not just restore the thing? But hidden under the “shed” it would all be one... one of the original diesel locomotives survives in preservation, if you want to be strictly accurate. The Wisbech and Upwell was, in fact, the first line in Britain to be worked entirely by diesel traction.

Similarly doesn't the East Anglian Railway Museum (Chappel) have a diesel converted to look like one of the steam tram locos? I think they use it for Thomas events.

[rockershovel]

Similarly doesn't the East Anglian Railway Museum (Chappel) have a diesel converted to look like one of the steam tram locos? I think they use it for Thomas events.

Apparently so; a coach as well

[Guius]

there is website for the restoration, progress is slow but there is progress

 

http://ng15-134.co.uk/Restoration/WPNews.html

Thanks Sir Douglas what a cracking website.

Guy

[009 micro modeller]

Apparently so; a coach as well F1E30C87-5425-49D0-8E2C-89338F13AF04.jpeg

Be interesting to know what the coach is based on.

[papagolfjuliet]

Be interesting to know what the coach is based on.

 

Details here: http://prsl.uk/final-results.asp?action=display&Id=37268

[rockershovel]

Here’s the “restored original” in Norfolk, although actually the underframe and bogies are “new build” - only the body is from the original coach

 

[Ravenser]

Details here: http://prsl.uk/final-results.asp?action=display&Id=37268

 

Proto-Pacer!

[ngtrains.com]

Time to takes this to a new topic chaps as title and current discussion are unrelated

[009 micro modeller]

Back to the NG15s, wasn't there one at Brecon some years ago?

[The Evil Bus Driver]

 In a word yes -  already been doing that for as long as we've had them. IIRC 143 currently has the kettle from 140, musical bogies have happened and for a brief while the then black one had a green end.

The aim with sending two boilers away now is to have a pool repaired ones ready to go in when the in service ones become due their 10 year. The boilers that have gone away are the one that came off 143 and its looking to be at the point where the money says a new one is better value the other one is off the one being restored on the Puffing Billy in Australia - 129 - as they have had a new welded boiler made. Its apparently `not too bad' but boiler repair cost are unidirectional, they only ever go up.

 

C2 is privately owned by a consortium of FR Volunteers and is intended for traffic at the completion of its extensive rebuild. The key difference is that the first thing they did towards the rebuild once they got it to the UK was to build and pay for a building in which to do the ovehaul. That approach probably wouldn't work with the NG15, it being a company owned loco, but that is the essence of the requirement -  a shed where they can get on with it as and when they can work. However, its not as simple as some kind benefactor buying them a shed it needs to be near the machine shop facilites, either at Boston Lodge or Dinas but space at both locations is at a premium

Sounds like a bit of forward planning going on. Nice to see though

[009 micro modeller]

Is the C2 going to have a smaller cab fitted and run on the Ffestiniog or will it be restricted to the WHR?