Wasp stripes on shunters

[rodent279]

Another in my infinite series of piffling trivia questions. This may have been asked before-if so, I apologise, please point me in the direction of the relevant thread.

 

Serious question-I do not know the answer, please do not scoff.

 

Why were shunters given wasp stripes, when plain yellow ends were deemed suitable for other classes, in some cases travelling at over 100mph?

 

Why were shunters not given plain yellow ends?

[Dunsignalling]

Wasp stripes on shunters came in before anybody thought about sticking yellow paint on the ends of main line locos.

 

It was just a case of BR adopting the accepted industrial norm for all kinds of heavy/dangerous stuff moving around the work environment.

 

In latter times, a few 08s did receive plain yellow ends. 

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[rodent279]

So why were main line locos not given wasps?

[stewartingram]

They were given flies instead. Have you never examined a yellow end on a hot summer's day?

 

 

 

Stewart

[Dunsignalling]

So why were main line locos not given wasps?

At the sort of distance one needs to spot a fast-moving loco or unit, wasp stripes are almost certainly less attention grabbing than a big blob of bright yellow. 

 

Wasp stripes break up an outline and make a slow moving object less likely to blend into the sort of complex background found in goods yards.

 

Horses for courses.

 

It's debateable whether wasp stripes or yellow ends have ever saved anyone's life, though it's true that neither is likely to have killed anyone, either. If it was such a good idea, why weren't similar requirements imposed on road vehicles?

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[rodent279]

They were given flies instead. Have you never examined a yellow end on a hot summer's day?

 

 

Stewart

That wins first prize for funniest answer I've seen in this forum yet!

 

You can have a years free membership.....

[rodent279]

Though you have a point-I remember walking past the front of 86249 at Euston, after a very fast run non-stop from Crewe, one hot summers day in 1985. The nominally yellow end was more of a large brown smear, composed of flat flies.

[Dunsignalling]

They were given flies instead. Have you never examined a yellow end on a hot summer's day?

 

 

Stewart

I've never had a yellow end, let alone flies all over one.

 

John

[Wheatley]

At the sort of distance one needs to spot a fast-moving loco or unit, wasp stripes are almost certainly less attention grabbing than a big blob of bright yellow. 

 

Wasp stripes break up an outline and make a slow moving object less likely to blend into the sort of complex background found in goods yards.

 

Horses for courses.

 

It's debateable whether wasp stripes or yellow ends have ever saved anyone's life, though it's true that neither is likely to have killed anyone, either. If it was such a good idea, why weren't similar requirements imposed on road vehicles?

 

John

 

Agreed. The yellow end is designed to be seen at a distance so the more yellow the better, whereas a yard shunter is more likely to sneak up on you from close up or from behind something. At short range something which visually jars, like yellow and black diagonal stripes, is more likely to be seen even if only out of the corner of your eye. There are no similar diagonals in nature and very few on buildings and structures* so they jump out and grab your attention.

 

*This assumes of course that you don't paint all the ruddy shed doors in yellow and black diagonal stripes as well, thus camouflaging the shunter.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Wheatley

[Reorte]

It's debateable whether wasp stripes or yellow ends have ever saved anyone's life, though it's true that neither is likely to have killed anyone, either. If it was such a good idea, why weren't similar requirements imposed on road vehicles?

There's the obvious "the road hasn't ever been as regulated (whether internally or externally), although that's dodging the question I suppose. Lower speeds, better stopping distances, and steering ability might be part of it.

[Dunsignalling]

There's the obvious "the road hasn't ever been as regulated (whether internally or externally), although that's dodging the question I suppose. Lower speeds, better stopping distances, and steering ability might be part of it.

Road vehicle specifications were always laid down in the Construction and Use (Motor Vehicles) Regulations, into which any such requirement could have been inserted.

 

They, or a more modern (EU?), equivalent will be the root of those blingy looking LED things that every car has to be festooned with these days, presumably with similar intent.

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[stewartingram]

Strange that. Our local coach operator (Dews of Somersham) is a VERY traditional small operator. In fact, within the main fleet he has a small fleet of semi-preserved vehicles that see regular use.He has a proper livery, all green with grey relief, no awful stripes etc anywhere. Recent expansion, mainly in the contract school services, but also some limited stage services (his first I believe), has seen an influx of "modern" double deck vehicles, second hand front entrance rear engined buses. Some are still in as bought livery, but they are getting repainted. Now, the point is, the d/d buses have a large panel between decks at the front, where the route indicator is fitted. This panel, bordered by a (rubber?) trim, is yellow as supplied, and on the one repainted bus that I have seen, remains that colour. Road equivalent of the rail yellow panel?

 

Stewart

[Dunsignalling]

Agreed. The yellow end is designed to be seen at a distance so the more yellow the better, whereas a yard shunter is more likely to sneak up on you from close up or from behind something. At short range something which visually jars, like yellow and black diagonal stripes, is more likely to be seen even if only out of the corner of your eye. There are no similar diagonals in nature and very few on buildings and structures* so they jump out and grab your attention.

 

*This assumes of course that you don't paint all the ruddy shed doors in yellow and black diagonal stripes as well, thus camouflaging the shunter.

Yes, and wasp stripes "jump out" even more when what they are on begins to move. 

 

John

[luckymucklebackit]

Not just Shunters, although this was just an experiment on unit 021

 

 

Jim

[rodent279]

I take all the points raised above. I've never worked on a live railway, and I'm not in a hurry to do so either, it's a dangerous place even when there aren't trains running.

 

But......if a plain yellow end is good enough for a fast moving train wherever it is, in the countryside or in an urban area, why not also on a shunter? And why not fit shunters with high intensity headlights?

 

I'm not questioning the need for yellow ends, wasp stripes or headlights, I totally get the need for visibility-I'm just genuinely interested to know the reason behind the difference.

[Wickham Green]

 There are no similar diagonals in nature and very few on buildings and structures* so they jump out and grab your attention.

 

Very few, indeed - but it's a good job there's no shunting yard at Stokesay ! : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=stokesay+castle+gatehouse&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB770GB770&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=rxeri1ERPCJorM%253A%252Cp3_-IUmge71qQM%252C_&usg=__ISpSytWYisCNYH0o1MQ-KdWHyKY%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH5f__g93ZAhXDyKQKHU3UB8wQ9QEIQjAD#imgrc=rxeri1ERPCJorM:

[Dunsignalling]

I take all the points raised above. I've never worked on a live railway, and I'm not in a hurry to do so either, it's a dangerous place even when there aren't trains running.

 

But......if a plain yellow end is good enough for a fast moving train wherever it is, in the countryside or in an urban area, why not also on a shunter? And why not fit shunters with high intensity headlights?

 

I'm not questioning the need for yellow ends, wasp stripes or headlights, I totally get the need for visibility-I'm just genuinely interested to know the reason behind the difference.

To begin with, timing, as I said earlier. By the time yellow ends came in for main line locos, wasp stripes were already the established norm on shunters. 

 

Why not wasp stripes on the main line? Basically because they were an industrial practice adopted by BR, designed for safety around vehicles moving relatively slowly.

 

The adoption of each was decided independently, several years apart, and (almost certainly) by different people and/or committees. Presumably, if it was considered at all, it was decided that shunters were OK as they were. 

 

There's probably no "reason", just an explanation, which is not the same thing.

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Corbs]

The PBA in Avonmouth applied red and white striped buffer beams to its steam locos after about 1960. Not the same as traditional 'wasp' but a variation.

[The Stationmaster]

I take all the points raised above. I've never worked on a live railway, and I'm not in a hurry to do so either, it's a dangerous place even when there aren't trains running.

 

But......if a plain yellow end is good enough for a fast moving train wherever it is, in the countryside or in an urban area, why not also on a shunter? And why not fit shunters with high intensity headlights?

 

I'm not questioning the need for yellow ends, wasp stripes or headlights, I totally get the need for visibility-I'm just genuinely interested to know the reason behind the difference.

 

Simple difference - and the one that was very much responsible for the wasp stripes - the 350s et al work at low speeds in areas where they are very often likely to be seen at very short sighting times but, critically, they would be working in areas of rapidly changing lighting conditions.  The latter was, I seem to recall, the critical part we locos working in deep shade one minute and in strong artificial light the next (or in fairly hopeless artificial light) thus moving through a range of lighting conditions was far more demanding than long range sighting.  All the experiments using blocks of colour to improve visibility on various 350s came to naught and stripes were found to be the most effective way of making them visible.

 

The difference from other traction was that it needed to be seen while it was still a good distance away which would give folk the maximum amount of time to get clear - don't forget that a train approaching at 90mph covers a quarter of a mile in 10 seconds and ideally you need more warning time than that, especially when carrying out some particular PWay maintenance tasks such as packing or lifting.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Given that the shunters were the test beds for visibility, bear in mind that some did have plain yellow ends, half and full, horizontal wasping and normal and inverted vee wasping,

Presumably the results from these early trials helped when making decisions about main line locomotives?

 

Mike.

[The Johnster]

I am going to go out on a limb without actual figures to support my argument here, but I have to take issue with Dunsignalling's view that the provision of both wasp stripes and yellow panels/FYE were of questionable or debatable value in saving lives.  Working on or around the track is and has always been a risky business, and you need to keep your wits about you!  A noticeable increase in such death and injuries (sadly, this is a field in which death is much more likely than injury) despite lower numbers of people working in this environment occurred at the time that steam was replaced with diesel or electric traction on fast trains, and this spike was traceable to the introduction of such traction on individual lines.  As the same safety measures were in place, no such increase should have occurred. 

 

Anecdotal evidence from Per Way men suggested that they were attuned by many years of experience to reacting to the sound of an approaching steam locomotive, and were conditioned to be aware of the sight of steam, even a wisp of it, in the distance.  The new locos had no such visible exhaust, and came up on you more quietly even when they were being thrashed; men were simply caught unawares having seen the approaching train but having fatally misjudged it's speed and proximity.  They left it too late to get out of the way,

 

BR attacked this in two ways, firstly by applying yellow warning panels to the locos in the early 60s, which had some effect in reducing the death rate.  This was developed into the full end yellow in the late 60s.  I would be fairly comfortable in stating that many lives were saved, but of course this is difficult to pin down!  I would also have little hesitation in asserting that hi-intensity headlights have had a beneficial effect as well, but these were unknown in the 60s except on the Central Wales line.

 

What indubitably has very saved many lives and continues to do so was the introduction of hi-vis for anyone on or about the track.  Work clothing without it is dull in colour and drivers experienced difficulty in even seeing men working in front of them in poor light or bad weather, and per way men are much more likely to react if you blow the horn at them; indeed, they will acknowledge your presence with a wave, also more visible with hi-vis, so you know they've seen you and are reacting.

[russ p]

Shunters do need headlights if going on a running line, these are normally portable rechargeable units but odd ones have fixed headlights

[Dunsignalling]

I am going to go out on a limb without actual figures to support my argument here, but I have to take issue with Dunsignalling's view that the provision of both wasp stripes and yellow panels/FYE were of questionable or debatable value in saving lives.  Working on or around the track is and has always been a risky business, and you need to keep your wits about you!  A noticeable increase in such death and injuries (sadly, this is a field in which death is much more likely than injury) despite lower numbers of people working in this environment occurred at the time that steam was replaced with diesel or electric traction on fast trains, and this spike was traceable to the introduction of such traction on individual lines.  As the same safety measures were in place, no such increase should have occurred. 

 

Anecdotal evidence from Per Way men suggested that they were attuned by many years of experience to reacting to the sound of an approaching steam locomotive, and were conditioned to be aware of the sight of steam, even a wisp of it, in the distance.  The new locos had no such visible exhaust, and came up on you more quietly even when they were being thrashed; men were simply caught unawares having seen the approaching train but having fatally misjudged it's speed and proximity.  They left it too late to get out of the way,

 

BR attacked this in two ways, firstly by applying yellow warning panels to the locos in the early 60s, which had some effect in reducing the death rate.  This was developed into the full end yellow in the late 60s.  I would be fairly comfortable in stating that many lives were saved, but of course this is difficult to pin down!  I would also have little hesitation in asserting that hi-intensity headlights have had a beneficial effect as well, but these were unknown in the 60s except on the Central Wales line.

 

What indubitably has very saved many lives and continues to do so was the introduction of hi-vis for anyone on or about the track.  Work clothing without it is dull in colour and drivers experienced difficulty in even seeing men working in front of them in poor light or bad weather, and per way men are much more likely to react if you blow the horn at them; indeed, they will acknowledge your presence with a wave, also more visible with hi-vis, so you know they've seen you and are reacting.

 

I agree that that yellow panels/fronts certainly will have saved many lives but actual numbers are impossible to quantify as it's very difficult to prove a negative. The only people who can really be certain that anything  actually caused someone not to be killed are those who have personally come close to it or witnessed others coming close to it. I limit that observation to land transport; ejector seats, parachutes and lifeboats/rafts provide clear-cut evidence of their effectiveness.

 

I know myself how close even a noisy diesel can get before hearing it coming, especially one approaching from downwind, having once been "surprised" by a Cl.50 with nine on pulling hard up a 1 in 80. I was already in a position of safety and heard the horn just before the engine noise when the loco was barely four carriage lengths away.

 

Overall, though, as you say, the combined effect of high visibility measures applied to both trains and trackside workers was necessary to achieve the full benefit.

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[25901]

Given that the shunters were the test beds for visibility, bear in mind that some did have plain yellow ends, half and full, horizontal wasping and normal and inverted vee wasping,

Presumably the results from these early trials helped when making decisions about main line locomotives?

 

Mike.

 

Here's a few

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_01#/media/File:BR_Class_01.jpg

 

http://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/shunters/d2/10-0-4-0/hA105E76D#ha105e76d

 

http://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/shunters/d2/10-0-4-0/hA13D8F37#ha13d8f37

 

 

And the MOD as normal do it there way

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholasy/5969100811

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/model_room_halt/model(8.1976)room5.jpg

[rodent279]

I agree that that yellow panels/fronts certainly will have saved many lives but actual numbers are impossible to quantify as it's very difficult to prove a negative. The only people who can really be certain that anything  actually caused someone not to be killed are those who have personally come close to it or witnessed others coming close to it. I limit that observation to land transport; ejector seats, parachutes and lifeboats/rafts provide clear-cut evidence of their effectiveness.

 

I know myself how close even a noisy diesel can get before hearing it coming, especially one approaching from downwind, having once been "surprised" by a Cl.50 with nine on pulling hard up a 1 in 80. I was already in a position of safety and heard the horn just before the engine noise when the loco was barely four carriage lengths away.

 

Overall, though, as you say, the combined effect of high visibility measures applied to both trains and trackside workers was necessary to achieve the full benefit.

 

John

 

I have to say, and this is coming from someone that has never worked on the track, I agree about the "stealth" nature of modern trains. An hour spent taking photos in a field near a level crossing on the ECML showed this up to me.

 

Several times the barriers went down, but there was no other noticeable warning of a train arriving until it was in sight, at which point, if you'd been on the track, you would have about 5 seconds to get out of the way. If you were packing ballast, or taking photos or notes of signalling or p-way, you could be so engrossed that you possibly wouldn't even be aware of your impending demise. It would just be lights out.

 

They don't call those 91+Mk4 sets stealth bombers for nothing!