Wasp stripes on shunters

[rodent279]

Here's a few

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_01#/media/File:BR_Class_01.jpg

 

http://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/shunters/d2/10-0-4-0/hA105E76D#ha105e76d

 

http://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/br/shunters/d2/10-0-4-0/hA13D8F37#ha13d8f37

 

 

And the MOD as normal do it there way

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholasy/5969100811

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/model_room_halt/model(8.1976)room5.jpg

 

I think the MOD way is quite effective actually.

 

I suppose another thing about the nature of shunters, and the work they do, is that potentially they could change direction at any time, without warning. Just because it's going away from you now doesn't mean it'll carry on going away from you, it might change direction & give you a nasty surprise! 

[corneliuslundie]

Some of the earliest "visibility" panels were white ones on SR shunters. However, they quickly got dirty.

 

Jonathan

[The Johnster]

A steam loco can creep up on you as well if it is coasting with the regulator closed, particularly if it is in good mechanical order with no clanks or steam leaks.  I am wondering if hammer blow had an unintended role to play in making those on the track aware of the approach of a train.

 

The effectiveness of high intensity headlights in daylight cannot be overestimated in my view.  When I worked on the railway, the 1970s, there were only marker lights and the backlit headcode panels, surprisingly effective at night but completely ineffective in daylight.  I was once guard on a 2-car Central Wales class 120 dmu from Bristol to Cardiff, and the driver turned on the headlight for a minute in the Severn Tunnel, a literally illuminating experience which was not very re-assuring when you were made so horribly aware of the amount of river that was coming in.  The headlights on these Swansea allocated sets and the Central Wales 37s originally at Pantyfynnon were Lucas 12 volt spotlights designed for car rallying, and were very effective at spotting sheep on the unfenced sections of the Central Wales, but not very good at preventing you hitting them...

 

Sheep are either a) incredibly stupid, a sheep farmer once described them to me as wooly bags of bones looking for new ways to die, or b) a Borg like collective superior intelligence plotting the overthrow and enslavement of mankind lulling us into a false sense of security by pretending to be stupid.  Look closely into their evil little eyes, and be afraid, be a very fraid.  

 

I digress, as usual; high intensity headlights are not designed to show what is ahead of the loco in this way, like a car headlight, but to identify the presence of a train. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by The Johnster

[rodent279]

Slightly OT, from when did it become compulsory for track workers to wear HV vests etc?

Is there a correlation between HV gear, yellow ends and a drop in deaths/serious injuries by track workers?

[iands]

Slightly OT, from when did it become compulsory for track workers to wear HV vests etc?

Is there a correlation between HV gear, yellow ends and a drop in deaths/serious injuries by track workers?

Not sure of the exact date that HV vests were introduced but when I started on the railway in 1973 I was issued with two "mini vests" - although coloured orange, they were always referred to as "yellow vests" by most people at the time. I don't think they were introduced to staff at the same time the yellow ends on locos, dmus, etc., were introduced but I could be wrong on this.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Slightly OT, from when did it become compulsory for track workers to wear HV vests etc?

Is there a correlation between HV gear, yellow ends and a drop in deaths/serious injuries by track workers?

 

There is a thread on here somewher about the subject.

I don't think it's so much when they were introduced, it's more when they were made compulsory.

I've seen pics from the mid 60's with a form of HV vest in (limited) use, and shots from the mid to late 70's with none in view.

 

Mike.

[Mark Saunders]

Not sure of the exact date that HV vests were introduced but when I started on the railway in 1973 I was issued with two "mini vests" - although coloured orange, they were always referred to as "yellow vests" by most people at the time. I don't think they were introduced to staff at the same time the yellow ends on locos, dmus, etc., were introduced but I could be wrong on this.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

When I first started at Cambois in, 82 they were referred to as Red Vests and some were still not wearing them without prompting!

 

Mark Saunders

[PenrithBeacon]

Yellow ends on engines were introduced late 1961 (the earliest photo I've seen is dated 8th October 1961). Yellow vests were introduced in the spring of 1968.

[russ p]

When I first started at Cambois in, 82 they were referred to as Red Vests and some were still not wearing them without prompting!

 

Mark Saunders

They weren't that bothered about them at thornaby and tees into the late 80s and as a secondman I never wore one when getting on the phone.

There was a shunter who shall remain nameless who preferred a camouflage jacket!!

[The Johnster]

Is his name preceded by 'the late lamented'...

 

Shunting was dangerous enough when they could see you; camo sounds outright suicidal!

[corneliuslundie]

I concur with the "Borg like collective superior intelligence" version, especially those in the Forest of Dean and the South Wales valleys. For real stupidity any sheep will be left leagues behind by a pheasant.

On diesel shunter stripes, I would have been interested to see how they were applied to the large front grilles, and am glad i shall never have to model such.

Jonathan

[On the block Allan]

Yes, and wasp stripes "jump out" even more when what they are on begins to move. 

 

John

 

Strange really, if the wasp stripe locomotive is doing what it is designed to do then a large percentage of the time the sighting of the wasp stripe would be obscured by coaches or box vans etc being propelled.

[101]

When I first started at Cambois in, 82 they were referred to as Red Vests and some were still not wearing them without prompting!

 

Mark Saunders

 

I think traincrew definately resisted wearing them longer than everyone else

[rodent279]

I think traincrew definately resisted wearing them longer than everyone else

Which is odd, because you'd think they'd be more aware of the risks than anyone, being in a position to see (or not see) the difference hi-vis makes.

[The Johnster]

Traincrew in the 70s were very 'small c' conservative in many ways, and the hi-vis tended to migrate to the bottom of driver's bags and be forgotten.  It was difficult to explain to a driver who was only demounting from his mighty steed to go on the phone to the bobby and not actually wandering about in the 4 foot on running lines that he had the time to bother with hi-viz.   It all went wrong when time was being saved for an early finish and the official walking route ignored, or Rule 55 carried out, or running lines were having to be crossed in order to relieve a train's crew...

 

As a guard, I kept mine rolled up in the detonator compartment of my satchel, easily accessed in case I had to go walkabout to protect in rear

[Siberian Snooper]

Does anyone know when wasp stripes started to appear on locos?

[Nearholmer]

Based on the evidence that I discuss in this thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , I am tempted to suggest that the definitive version of wasp stripes was mandated for new builds from 1 January 1960, with existing locos to be dealt with at "the earliest opportunity.

 

[rodent279]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Based on the evidence that I discuss in this thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , I am tempted to suggest that the definitive version of wasp stripes was mandated for new builds from 1 January 1960, with existing locos to be dealt with at "the earliest opportunity.

 

Does that mean they pre-date yellow ends?

[Nearholmer]

If you mean full yellow ends on "main line" locos, yes. very definitely.

 

There may have been some shunters with plain yellow ends prior to 1960, during the period when various visibility improvements were being tried, but I don't think so - the plain, light-coloured, ends seen in some monochrome photos were, I think, white.

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/03/2018 at 18:24, The Johnster said:

Is his name preceded by 'the late lamented'...

 

Shunting was dangerous enough when they could see you; camo sounds outright suicidal!

The problem was that it was downright dangerous if you did any sort of work that involved going between vehicles with the early type of hv vests.  There were definitely instances of injuries resulting from Shunters, and others, wearing them when going in between (vehicles) and the bl**dy things seem to have been purposely designed to catch on something, bring you up short and make you lift your head and bash it on something.  They were an accident waiting to happen if you were passenger (vehicle) shunting or hanging on/off a loco, especially a dual brake steam heat loco.

 

And that was the reason why the design was modified to incorporate Velcro fastening at the shoulders although to be honest I don't really think they were much better as the Velcro tended to hold together far too well.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[keefer]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Based on the evidence that I discuss in this thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146142-br-diesel-liveries-1950s-60s/ , I am tempted to suggest that the definitive version of wasp stripes was mandated for new builds from 1 January 1960, with existing locos to be dealt with at "the earliest opportunity.

 

Was having a quick look through the RPA Loco Directory http://www.railphotoarchive.org/rpc_locodir.php  and found these pics taken at Stratford in June 1963:

 

Two black locos with no wasps:

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0146020824000

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0146020826000

D2999 with wasps, would seem to have had them for a while - the 08 behind looks freshly (re)painted:

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0146020825000

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by keefer

[Nearholmer]

There are plenty of photos of locos with no wasp-stripes up to possibly as late as c1967 (now someone will table an even later example!), which is why I think that whatever edict was issued was probably couched in terms of "earliest opportunity" or " as soon as practicable", which we all know are usually read to mean "when you get round to it"; either that, or it did set a fixed date, which was ignored by some, or some locos simply got forgotten!

 

PS: Wasn't there a wonderful (insane?) variety of diesel shunting locos in service with BR by the early 1960s?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Nearholmer

[The Johnster]

There were supposed to be 2 basic types, the 350hp diesel electric and the 204hp diesel mechanical.  But Regional autonomy and specific job requirements that could not be fulfilled fully by the above types led to all sorts of small classes of industrial types being acquired.  The 'specific job' aspect meant that some lasted a good while; the Holyhead breakwater loco come to mind.

 

Wasp stripes appeared to me at the time to appear more or less overnight (perhaps the WR was more on the ball with this, or perhaps it was just South Wales), and not only on locomotives.  Road plant, cranes, bulldozers, shed doors, all sorts of stuff seemed to go all waspy very quickly.  I've always assumed it became a legal safety requirement as part of Health and Safety at Work, but don't really know.

[Nearholmer]

Health and safety legislation wasn't properly overhauled until 1974, so wasp stripes, yellow ends, "yeller jackets", etc pre-date that and resulted, I think, from a combination of management self-motivation, trades union pressure (I don't think "Safety Reps" existed until the 1974 act, so pressure must have been via the ordinary "machinery", but I'd be interested to know), and inspectorate pressure, against a background of slowly changing levels of acceptance of "accidental deaths", and some blasted scary statistics.

 

If you think about motorcycle helmet law, speed limits, drink-driving legislation, seat belts etc etc, its pretty clear that a sea-change in attitude was beginning from perhaps as early as the mid-1950s, and there were some very nasty colliery accidents, a fire in the meat market in London in which two firefighters died etc, which must have made people think "hold on a minute!" when it came to risking lives at work.

 

Out of interest, I checked the history of motorcycle helmet law, which finally got enacted in 1973, and found this: "On 31st May 1956, a motion was introduced into the House of Commons “(Helmets to be worn by Drivers and Riders of Motorcycles). After a lengthy debate, this motion was withdrawn.", the fact that army despatch riders had to wear helmets  from some point during WW2, and that concerns really began in 1935, when Lawrence of Arabia died, so these things are a long time in the coming.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Nearholmer

[The Johnster]

I'd agree with that in general.  When I started on the railway in 1970, hi-viz was new and there were plenty of old fashioned thought processes about from staff and management.  There was little compulsion to use safety equipment though it was provided; for instance, we were told to wear ear 'muff' defenders if we walked through the engine room of a loco while the engine was running, but as traincrew we weren't issued with them.  You could ask for them at stores if you wanted, but nobody did (from the traincrew grades I mean, the fitters used them) and the management attitude was that they'd provided the equipment and it was down to us to use it.   Similarly, official walking routes were frequently ignored in favour of the cess and crossing running lines, by traincrew not wearing hi-viz and not infrequently at night, in the interests of booking off a bit earlier, and nobody seemed to bother much about it.

 

Canton to Cardiff Central by the official walking route, footbridge, de Croche Place, Ninian Park Rd, Tudor St, Wood St and Central Square was allowed 35 minutes, having been proved to take that long at a reasonable walking pace from the back end of the carriage sidings to Platform 9.  Mostly it took about 25 minutes, the time suggested in the Ian Allan Shed Directory, but the temptation to walk down the line, 10 or 15 minutes, was too much for most of us!

 

Nowadays I suspect you'd be pulled up and talked to if you went into the engine room of a loco without muffs and a manager saw you.  Quite right too.  I remember the debate when seat belts were first provided in cars, and then made a legal obligation; people complained that their personal freedom was being in some way interfered with by a nanny state; the same arguments were used for child seats.  By and large, both the general public and your average workforce are too stupid to be relied upon to look after themselves, and I include myself in some of this; we have to be protected by enforced legislation.

 

The problem trackside, when accidents involving Per Way or S & T staff increased drastically with the introduction of diesel and electric traction despite there being less traffic, was viewed with increasing concern by both 'sides', and unions and management co-operated in investigating means of solving the problem; the answer, as we've seen, was ultimately hi-viz but the yellow panels and full yellow ends were steps along the way.  For identifying approaching trains at a distance in poor visibility or on hot days when heat shimmer off the rails makes things look a bit weird, a bright headlamp is unbeatable, but we didn't have them until the HSTs were in service.