PO wagons, how did it work in practise?

[Quarryscapes]

You could do worse than finding a copy of Private Owners on the Cambrian by C.C. Green, it covers not only wagons originating in the Cambrian area but (almost) every P.O. known to have visited the area. It shows both the variety in geographic origin and wagon style that could work into a very small area. 

[MarcD]

Ahh the hen's tooth book. I have been trying to get my hands on a copy for 4 years. Last time I saw a copy on eBay it went for £40.

 

Marc

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Interesting, so in practice you were more likely to see coal landed at Kingsbridge and taken by rail to Brent, than you would to see coal arrive at Brent on the pick up goods from Newton and be transferred down the branch to Kingsbridge?

Doubt it, as the Kingswear to Torquay Gasworks traffic was a specific (and regular) flow, rather than the more infrequent (and lesser) amounts

to wayside stations.

[Guy Rixon]

There was the London Coal Tax which operated for 300 years and the final collection of tax was around 1890.  The  boundary was an irregular loop of markers  around 12 to 18 miles radius from the centre of London,  some impressive boundary markers were erected in the 1860's  and many still exist and a few examples can be seen near the lineside .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal-tax_post

 

One example may be seen at the London end of Swanley Station high up in the  down side embankment

 

A list of survivors:

 

https://archive.is/20121224102205/http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/coalwine/postlist.htm

 

What I have not been able to find out was whether the Coal Tax was due on coal passing through London, or only on coal traded within the boundary. E.g., if a merchant in, say, Tonbridge buys 50 tons of coal and that load travels via the the MR, the Widened Lines and the SER, does he pay the tax or not? Much coal used in Kent got there by ship, with more moving the full distance by rail in the 20th century, but I don't know if the tax was a factor in that choice.

[The Great Bear]

Related to this thread, more or less, what proportion of the overall wagon fleet did PO wagons make up? (My particular time of interest is post war, pre-nationalisation. The PO wagons had been requisitioned by that point as mentioned above I know.)

[wagonman]

Related to this thread, more or less, what proportion of the overall wagon fleet did PO wagons make up? (My particular time of interest is post war, pre-nationalisation. The PO wagons had been requisitioned by that point as mentioned above I know.)

 

 

Very roughly 50% of the total wagon fleet was privately owned there being upwards of half a million of each at the peak. Obviously in various parts of the country the proportions could differ markedly.

[wagonman]

What I have not been able to find out was whether the Coal Tax was due on coal passing through London, or only on coal traded within the boundary. E.g., if a merchant in, say, Tonbridge buys 50 tons of coal and that load travels via the the MR, the Widened Lines and the SER, does he pay the tax or not? Much coal used in Kent got there by ship, with more moving the full distance by rail in the 20th century, but I don't know if the tax was a factor in that choice.

 

When the coal was carried by sea, the tax was payable before it could be unshipped. I assume a similar arrangement applied to rail-borne coal so any wagons just passing through would not have been taxed if they unloaded outside the coal tax boundary.

[Wickham Green]

Related to this thread, more or less, what proportion of the overall wagon fleet did PO wagons make up? (My particular time of interest is post war, pre-nationalisation. The PO wagons had been requisitioned by that point as mentioned above I know.)

 

Very roughly 50% of the total wagon fleet was privately owned there being upwards of half a million of each at the peak. Obviously in various parts of the country the proportions could differ markedly.

Yes, that's approx 50% of the TOTAL WAGON FLEET not just of the coal-carrying wagonry ....... and only a small proportion of that 50% carried anything other than black gold.

[The Johnster]

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

 

I'll say that again...

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Really not sure what happened there!  You only need to read it once, of course.

[The Johnster]

The simplest answer to your dilemma is to set your layout in 1940. Otherwise, if you can get hold of a copy of Len Tavender's 'Coal Trade Wagons' you will see that some colliery wagons travelled quite large distances – from the Midlands to Sussex for example; merchants' wagons tended to shuttle between their home station and one or two regular collieries (not always the nearest); factors' wagons tended to have the widest range, though still usually regional: Renwick Wilton wagons were seen anywhere in the South West and in transit to the Midlands coalfield.

 

Away from industrial areas, the main source of coke for domestic or light industrial use was the local gas works.  Coke for use in iron works (Foundry Coke) was normally produced at the colliery or sometimes the steelworks. For instance, much of the coke used at the Westbury iron works in Wiltshire was produced at the colliery at Newbury or Vobster where there were banks of coke ovens. Coke for the Workington steel works came 'over the top' from Co Durham. And so on...

 

 

Richard

 

 

PS: when does a "large coal merchant" become a Coal Factor?

 

Very useful information concerning coke wagons, wagonman.

[Wickham Green]

 

 

Really not sure what happened there!  You only need to read it once, of course.

Pardon ..........

[The Johnster]

Come again?

[doilum]

Fascinating read especially about the coal trade from the market destination perspective.

As always a good photograph is priceless. My guess is that by 1945, the pool system would have redistributed the PO wagons making a train of faded singleton wagons the norm. This grants full modelers licence.

To be accurate, the original livery needs to be on the correct wagon with regards to builder and design.

Whilst you search for the Hudson collection, make a coffee and peruse the POWSIDES website for inspiration.

[wagonman]

Fascinating read especially about the coal trade from the market destination perspective.

As always a good photograph is priceless. My guess is that by 1945, the pool system would have redistributed the PO wagons making a train of faded singleton wagons the norm. This grants full modelers licence.

To be accurate, the original livery needs to be on the correct wagon with regards to builder and design.

Whilst you search for the Hudson collection, make a coffee and peruse the POWSIDES website for inspiration.

 

 

By 1945 they would indeed have been well scattered, but bear in mind that many of the liveries would have become severely degraded, not having been painted for up to eight years. Wagons that were repainted during the war tended to get a basic livery, probably all black, with the owner's name in block letters a couple of inches high. By th e early 1950s most wagons would have been pretty much bare wood with just a black patch for the number and tare weight. There are quite a few photos of wagons in this condition in the various volumes of the "Severn & Wye Railway" published by Lightmoor Press. 

 

[declaration of interest: Lightmoor are my publishers too]

[Wickham Green]

By 1945 they would indeed have been well scattered, but bear in mind that many of the liveries would have become severely degraded, not having been painted for up to eight years. Wagons that were repainted during the war tended to get a basic livery, probably all black, with the owner's name in block letters a couple of inches high. By th e early 1950s most wagons would have been pretty much bare wood with just a black patch for the number and tare weight. There are quite a few photos of wagons in this condition in the various volumes of the "Severn & Wye Railway" published by Lightmoor Press. 

 

[declaration of interest: Lightmoor are my publishers too]

My guess - purely a guess and NOT necessarily applied on my layout 'cos of the Rule 1 cop-out - is that there would have been few Scottish wagons in England or Wales, and vice-versa, during this period as there was little need for cross-border coal traffic ..... maybe the odd wagonload of a very special grade fuel ?  ( During the Great Way, of course, the situation was very different with millions of tons of the black stuff heading north to Scapa Flow or thereabouts ! )

Full repaints during WWII were very rare indeed and any wagon that got to the point that it was virtually impossible to identify would have had a black PATCH painted on to receive that small lettering ( Described as 'Pirates Eye' lettering in some sources - but WHY ? ). The Hudson & OPC books show a number of NEW wagons with such lettering and a surprising number of wartime builds in full-colour livery - presumably so long as the paints/pigments/workforce were available.

[Edwin_m]

( Described as 'Pirates Eye' lettering in some sources - but WHY ? ).

Perhaps because it was on a black PATCH?

 

(Aaarrrrrrr). 

[Wickham Green]

Perhaps because it was on a black PATCH?

 

(Aaarrrrrrr). 

Aye-eye cap'n ....

[wagonman]

Yes, that's approx 50% of the TOTAL WAGON FLEET not just of the coal-carrying wagonry ....... and only a small proportion of that 50% carried anything other than black gold.

 

 

If you add the railway company owned mineral wagons – of which there were many, especially in the North East – you end up with well over 50% of the country's wagon stock devoted to carrying the 'black gold'. Sobering thought now when what little coal we still use is imported.

[Wickham Green]

If you add the railway company owned mineral wagons – of which there were many, especially in the North East – you end up with well over 50% of the country's wagon stock devoted to carrying the 'black gold'. Sobering thought now when what little coal we still use is imported.

The North East was odd in some ways : the NER actively discouraged - or even forbade - the use of P.O. wagons to or between its stations* yet it entered into agreements for whole trainloads to share its tracks ! ( whole = including 'Private Owner' loco and brake van ! )

 

* I don't know whether there was any change to this policy in LNER days - would be interesting to know whether the attitude softened at all or spread to other areas ?

[Mark Saunders]

The North East was odd in some ways : the NER actively discouraged - or even forbade - the use of P.O. wagons to or between its stations* yet it entered into agreements for whole trainloads to share its tracks ! ( whole = including 'Private Owner' loco and brake van ! )

 

* I don't know whether there was any change to this policy in LNER days - would be interesting to know whether the attitude softened at all or spread to other areas ?

Nothing odd about running rights over the railway company metals as it goes back to the way companies were amalgamated to form the North Eastern Railway and such practice remained in place till nationalisation when th NCB were running their trains from colliery to staiths. I am sure that the Lambton Hetton & Joicey was formed as a railway company?

 

Mark Saunders

[wagonman]

Nothing odd about running rights over the railway company metals as it goes back to the way companies were amalgamated to form the North Eastern Railway and such practice remained in place till nationalisation when th NCB were running their trains from colliery to staiths. I am sure that the Lambton Hetton & Joicey was formed as a railway company?

 

Mark Saunders

 

The Lambton system goes back to 1737 and a horse worked waggonway connecting Lambton colliery with the River Wear. The system developed and grew through amalgamations (with Hetton Collieries among others) and had running rights over the NER for the simple reason they were there first! But the railway system was always colliery owned which is why, upon nationalisation, the system became part of the NCB rather than BR. The Londonderry and the Bowes railways developed similarly (I nearly said "along similar lines"...ooops, I just did).

Edited March 22, 2018 by wagonman

[kevinlms]

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

 

I'll say that again...

Or set your layout in the decade or so following WW2, when XPO pool wagons could still be seen in their original liveries, but under a serious coating of filth (yes, I know, this kind of negates the bright shiny livery that attracted the buyer of the model in the first place). I have several XPO wagons on my 1950s BLT, in various liveries, mostly variants of early BR grey, but I have a factory weathered Baccy 'MOY' with coke rails that I have put an extra coat of black colliery gunge; this has a BR number.  There is also a Baccy 7 planker which is so heavily weathered that I cannot read the original name and have forgotten it, carrying the original number having not yet been renumbered in the BR 'P' series; it probably never will be as it look to be on it's last legs (wheels?) and older minerals were being withdrawn for very little reason in those days as the supply of new steel wagons was in full swing and the traffic was decreasing.  This is perfectly prototypical as photos from the period show!

 

The use of PO wagons on a pre-war period layout is a very good indication of how familiar the owner is with the period; the brightly coloured coal train with all the wagons in fresh and different liveries is a bit of a give away, but if it's your bag, fine, just apply Rule 1.

Really not sure what happened there!  You only need to read it once, of course.

They weren't just filthy, but many had replacement planks fitted, some just one & others with several replaced. These were not painted at all and in many cases made the original owners name, difficult/impossible to determine.

[Caledonian]

My guess - purely a guess and NOT necessarily applied on my layout 'cos of the Rule 1 cop-out - is that there would have been few Scottish wagons in England or Wales, and vice-versa, during this period as there was little need for cross-border coal traffic ..... maybe the odd wagonload of a very special grade fuel ?  ( During the Great Way, of course, the situation was very different with millions of tons of the black stuff heading north to Scapa Flow or thereabouts ! )

Full repaints during WWII were very rare indeed and any wagon that got to the point that it was virtually impossible to identify would have had a black PATCH painted on to receive that small lettering ( Described as 'Pirates Eye' lettering in some sources - but WHY ? ). The Hudson & OPC books show a number of NEW wagons with such lettering and a surprising number of wartime builds in full-colour livery - presumably so long as the paints/pigments/workforce were available.

 

Funnily enough there's at least one photie of the tidying up at Aberdeen Kittybrewster after it was bombed by Mr Hitler's aeroplanes in 1943 which includes a Stephens and Carter wagon in good condition.

[Caledonian]

The North East was odd in some ways : the NER actively discouraged - or even forbade - the use of P.O. wagons to or between its stations* yet it entered into agreements for whole trainloads to share its tracks ! ( whole = including 'Private Owner' loco and brake van ! )

 

* I don't know whether there was any change to this policy in LNER days - would be interesting to know whether the attitude softened at all or spread to other areas ?

 

There was nothing odd about the arrangement at all. Railways were invented in the North East specifically in order to run coal from the pits to loading staithes on the rivers or at coastal ports such as Blyth, using their own track, their own wagons and their own locos, and this very largely remained the case until coal stopped being won. 

 

Where the railway companies came in was hauling coal to inland destinations and in the North East this was most conveniently done in railway company wagons as it avoided the problems discussed above since the collieries could use their own wagons to shuttle the stuff straight down to the staithes. Some of this traffic was uninterrupted but the network of tracks was so dense in some areas that running rights were required over railway company track.

 

The colliery brake vans were no conceit, but a requirement by the railway company, who insisted they be hung on the back of trains when exercising those running rights. Colliery stock exercising those running rights also had to be regularly inspected by the railway company to ensure that they were fit for it. South of the Tyne post war there was a very distinctive chain like symbol painted on the side of wagons - the first link contained the initials of the area and as I recall the third had the inspection date, but I don't remember what "linked" the two. Mark?

[Wickham Green]

Funnily enough there's at least one photie of the tidying up at Aberdeen Kittybrewster after it was bombed by Mr Hitler's aeroplanes in 1943 which includes a Stephens and Carter wagon in good condition.

Stephens and Carter ? ........... what happened to Clarkson an' Patterson ?