Smoke, Steam and new 0 layout?

[phil.c]

I have been looking at steam/smoke video's, I must admit that I know very little about what is fitted and how it works, I know it's units run via a decoder and having watched a few video's, it seems to me that the 0 gauge are better, correct me if I'm wrong but they seem to have a lot more room to fit the larger smoke and steam units, they also chuff smoke in sync with the sound where the 00 ones just seem to release it continuously.

I'm getting to a stage now where I have been modelling scenery for a very long time and not running any trains, however, I have changed over to DCC a few years ago, fitted sound decodes it a few loco's and built that 43xx brass etched loco that I posted here a couple of years ago, Model Rail are coming to do a follow up for the magazine at the end of the month, the station is nearly finished...well one platform anyway, so...after that, I will probably get the track maintained and get something moving, I am also toying with the idea of after about thirty years of Pen Y Bryn, scrapping it!...and changing over to 0 gauge and building something special and of course adding those steam and smoke loco's.

 

My layout is 18' X 10', ok, if I changed to 0 gauge, I wouldn't be able to model anywhere near enough scenes as Pen Y Bryn because of space and the corner turns would need to be of a larger radius. The other thing is, I have lot's of scene cameo's that took a long time to build, what do I do with it as I feel binning it so not the way to go, also the running stock with kit and commercially bought loco's?

 

I would be very interested in members suggestions and ideas.

 

Another thing is, if I changed to 0, I would want the closest to scale track, I haven't a clue what is out there, all my points are hand built including double slips etc so that wouldn't be a problem if I had to go down that road, I also don't know a lot about what 0 gauge loco's are available?

 

 

 

 

 

____________________

Phil

[Simond]

Phil,

 

Interesting questions, most of which, you need to answer for yourself, but I’ll throw a few thoughts in the ring.

 

I’ll start with gauge as that’s likely contentious! Standard Fine 0 Gauge is 32mm. Pretty much any RTR and commercial wheels & stuff will run ok on this and Peco pointwork. There are two other options in common use - 0MF which is 31.5 Gauge with finer flangeways, but which will handle stock as above, and S7 which is 33mm Gauge, and close to scale flangeways. If you adopt 0MF as I have done, you can run your stock on club and pals layouts and vice versa. S7 is somewhat of a minority. Personally, I like rolling stock built to S7 standards, but it’s difficult to tell the difference between S7 and 0MF track from two coach lengths away. There is an issue with S7, in that corner radii typically need to be a bit bigger than the 6’ that is typical for 0F & 0MF. This may translate into longer pointwork, if you want large locos.

 

You can certainly build scale track, see my humble efforts on Porth Dinllaen, link below, or 3-Link’s, Jinty’s & Spams’ efforts on their threads. There’s lots about. We have all used C&L components, wooden sleepers, and made our own pointwork. Some people have made 3D printed chairs for those not currently commercially available.

 

A roundy roundy in 18 x 10’ will be very cramped. 4’6” radius is feasible, but might not be satisfying, unless you want a dockside, or something similarly cramped.

 

I could talk about DCC, I have sound fitted most of my locos, it’s pretty standard, and there are lots of good commercial sound projects available, but “blown smoke” is still relatively unusual. It can look very convincing, but I can’t offer any help on how it is done, or how much space is required inside the loco. If the heaters and blowers are high current, beware the added cost of a higher capacity decoder.

 

Availability of 0 Gauge locos - GW, all the standard classes are available as kits, and several as RTR. There’s good availability of LMS & LNER locos as kits, rather less RTR, Southern fans get even less. BR standards are available as kit and a couple of high end RTR. Heljan and others produce diesels.

 

Hope these thoughts offer some food for thought

Best

Simon

Edited March 25, 2018 by Simond

[phil.c]

Hi Simon,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

You might have noticed if you followed my Pen y bryn layout that the majority of the pictures are now, not viewable due to those lovely people at Photobucket, but cameo's are a big scenic part of the layout, here's when the pictures can be seen http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68451-pen-y-bryn/page-11

 

"If" I switch to 7mm it will be GWR, because the layout would be from scratch, building track is a possibility, but if there is good looking scale-ish commercial ones out there that would save a lot of time...the same with building loco's.

 

A run around the room is a bit iffy..so I would probably put track around but base movement with shunting etc, I have 18' to work with so there are still possibilities, but at the moment this is just an idea.

 

Phil

[81A Oldoak]

Phil,

I had been dabbling in 0 gauge for almost 23 years when I finally took the plunge and abandoned my 00 gauge layout. The first station to go was Boduan Junction, which had featured in the Railway Modeller. It was replaced with Cwm Bach, my 7mm scale interpretation of the South Wales Valleys. I retrieved all of the buildings, signals, scenic parts, wires, switches etc before demolition. Unfortunately, the hand-made points were set solidly in ballast so had to be written off. The sequence of photos show my valedictory shots of Boduan Junction, the pile of ashes left after burning the boards and Cwm Bach. A couple of years later Abersoch (RM Raliway of the Month May 1995) went the same way to be replaced by Tonfanau Camp. 

 

I have kept all of my 4mm scale assets because one never knows what the future may bring.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[phil.c]

Thanks Chris,

 

So what 7mm track did you use and what make loco's and the size of you layout now.

 

Phil

[Simond]

Phil,

 

See Chris’ signature...

 

There’s a clue in there somewhere!

 

Best

Simon

[3 link]

Hi Phil,

 

Welcome to the " best " scale, I moved up to 7mm back in the early 90's from EM gauge and have never regretted the move.

 

Looking at your standard of modelling Phil, it will be great to follow your new project and I look forward to the updates.

 

All the best,

 

Martyn.

Edited March 25, 2018 by 3 link

[phil.c]

Thanks guys, what concerns me is the size I have available, also, my layout is SMP which seems finer scale than Peco etc. it really gets to me when I see a good layout but is spoiled by the height of the rails up to a man's knee! So, I would be starting from scratch and would need to find suppliers of fine track etc...also I would need to check out prototypical curves etc and also what people sell GWR fine scale loco's etc....a long learning curve again after modelling for forty six years or so!

 

 

Phil

Edited March 25, 2018 by phil.c

[81A Oldoak]

Thanks Chris,

 

So what 7mm track did you use and what make loco's and the size of you layout now.

 

Phil

 

Phil,

The points are handbuilt using C&L parts and the plain track is C&L flexible track. The industrial locos are either Minerva or Ixion, in which I have business interests as SimonD has pointed out. The 57XX pannier tank is also Minerva. Other locos not shown here are built from kits and I have a couple of RTR locos from other manufacturers.  

 

The layout is 15' x 2' with the scenic area occupying 10' x 2'. The basic premise is a terminus in the upper reaches of South Wales valley where coal is exchanged between a colliery line and the main line. All buildings are scratchbuilt. I have attached a sketch of the layout and a photo that shows almost all of the scenic area. Please note that the river is reflecting bright sunlight shining through a window. Under normal lighting it is a mucky green/brown colour. 

 

The layout is wired for DCC, but I am also experimenting with the Protocab WiFi trackless control system. The 57XX in the previous photos is fitted with Protocab and is electrically independent of the rails. Points are moved by Tortoise motors and the signals are operated with PECO servos. 

 

I hope this useful.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

Cwm Bach layout sketchplan.pdf

[railwayrod]

Hello Phil. Unlike Chris when I moved up to 0 gauge I decided to dispose of all my 00 and H0 stock as I needed the cash to finance the larger scale. I figured that if my circumstances changed and I had to go back down to the smaller scale I would be able to sell some of my 7mm stock to fund the new layout which I would need. In any case with the rapid progress and development in the smaller scales any "old" 00 stock would not stand comparison to the latest models.

 

I am very fortunate that I have a purpose built shed for my layout which is 30 feet by 12 feet so I have plenty of room to do what I want to do. If you have not seen my thread go to "The Ramchester Chronicles" on RMweb and take a look. On the subject of track I have used Peco products but heavily modified but if I was starting again I would go for 31.5mm gauge so that flangeway gaps would be finer. My ruling radius is 5 ft 3ins and my San Cheng Black 5 has no trouble with this.

 

Hope this is of some use to you.

 

Rod

[phil.c]

Thanks Chris and Rod, I'm starting to get my head around this now, flange way gaps always give away whether it's a model or real so that is important to me, so...would C&L cover this or is 31.5 finer again, (please excuse my ignorance with 0) if so can loco's like Minerva run on it without binding? Fine tolerances are good by me as long as I don't need to modify loco wheels, I have been building kit loco's for a long time, I've even scratch built one, it's just the time involved, as pointwork and track will have to be built as well as scratching the buildings and everything else so time is important.

 

Chris, your type of layout, I could manage ok, lot's of points for shunting etc, I have 4 feet of width so there could be lots going on there, BTW, the reflection on the river looks like sky so that's ok by me

 

I'm actually in Tenerife in the sun sorting all this out ?

 

Phil

[81A Oldoak]

Thanks Chris and Rod, I'm starting to get my head around this now, flange way gaps always give away whether it's a model or real so that is important to me, so...would C&L cover this or is 31.5 finer again, (please excuse my ignorance with 0) if so can loco's like Minerva run on it without binding? Fine tolerances are good by me as long as I don't need to modify loco wheels, I have been building kit loco's for a long time, I've even scratch built one, it's just the time involved, as pointwork and track will have to be built as well as scratching the buildings and everything else so time is important.

 

Chris, your type of layout, I could manage ok, lot's of points for shunting etc, I have 4 feet of width so there could be lots going on there, BTW, the reflection on the river looks like sky so that's ok by me

 

I'm actually in Tenerife in the sun sorting all this out ?

 

Phil

Phil,

I have seen Minerva locos running on 31.5mm without problems. Some of my points on the industrial section are down to 5' radius. The 57XX will traverse PECO Setrack curves and the industrials will comfortably negotiate 36" radius curves. The bigger issue is overhang. The only loco I own that doesn't like anything tighter than 6' radius is my JLTRT kit-built 42XX 2-8-0T. 

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[brianusa]

Chris, like your pictures.  Years ago I upgraded from the smaller scales to O for various reasons and never regretted it, in fact it was an encouragement to go further into the hobby.  But as I am into tinplate, I can't offer much advice except to go for it!

 

Brian.

[Simond]

Phil,

 

Pretty much all finescale 0 will manage 31.5, that’s why it’s such a good solution. I say pretty much because there were stories about early Heljan. And pretty much all of it doesn’t suffer wheel drop on 1.5mm flangeways which is a major reason why you want it in the first place

 

Saw you posted on WT too. They’ll all try to get you to do S7, and if a) you don’t want to run your stock on lots of other layouts, and b) you don’t have a bunch of mates with “ordinary” 0 Gauge models who will want running rights at your place, and c) you can manage the larger radii, and finally d) you don’t want to run RTR without some work, then go for it. The stock will look better, but like I said, you’ll not see the difference in the track.

 

If any of these criteria do apply, then 31.5 is your solution.

 

You already said you were going build your own pointwork, so the only barrier to 31.5 & S7 is already overcome.

 

Rail height? I use a mix of C&L, Peco and Slaters rail, it’s all 125 thou (3.175 mm) high, and fits C&L chairs, which have a web 1mm thick - total height of railhead from sleeper top is thus 4.175mm or just under 7.2” real size, a good bit lower than the average knee! Comparing this with my GW trackwork book, which gives 1901 77.5 lbs rail section height as 5.25”, which scales as 3.06 mm, unfortunately, David Smith doesn’t give a height for the 95BS but it’s going to be a but deeper than the 77.5, so I reckon it’s pretty reasonable.

 

Best

Simon

[phil.c]

Thanks Chris, overhangs is a big no- no for me, what is the standard point and track radius prototypical?

 

Phil

 

PS cross post Simon, I'll reply later.

Edited March 25, 2018 by phil.c

[Simond]

I have three 2-8-0’s. A Finney, 47xx, a Warren Shephard 52xx and a scratchbuilt 28xx.

 

Whilst the 47xx was challenging, the 52xx was probably the most difficult to get round Peco crossovers (basically the benchmark for “running anywhere”) and I calculated a 2.5mm throw was required on the rear axle, as I provided minimal sideplay on the leading and third axles - this seemed to me to be the best compromise. By the time I got round to the 28, I was getting used to it...

 

Herewith some photos of the locos on the tightest curves on my shed layout. The 28 and 47 are on curves of around 1775mm. The 52 is on a curve of 1750 radius, which is a challenge for my Mitchell King - it scrapes round, the 52 doesn’t hesitate.

 

 

 

 

I don’t think the throwover on any of them is excessive, however you wouldn’t want to be shunting on tight pointwork with the front of any of them!

 

Sadly, I haven’t done as well as the great man, Churchward, according to Wikipedia, 4201 could “easily manage curves down to 40 metres” radius. I have to say, I doubt it!

 

Best

Simon

[phil.c]

Thanks Simon, lots to think about, but regarding S7, I don't want to run anything on anyone else's layout so it's a possibility...but, if I went down that road, I would have to join their society and buy everything from them, (have I got this right) I would also need to change loco wheels for their finer tolerences?

Edited March 25, 2018 by phil.c

[Jintyman]

Welcome to 7mm, the best scale in my opinion.

I moved up about 2 years ago and I'm building my long term stay at home layout Talyllyn Junction West. The trackwork is all 31.5 (O-MF) which reduces any wheel drop in the crossing vee and has 1.5mm flange gaps, unlike the standard OF (Finescale) which employs 1.75.. flangeway gaps. The track gauge of 31.5 is suitable for all wheels that are to OF standards so RTR and kit built items should have no trouble in running over them. I have had the odd RTR item that has not complied, in particular a Heljan GUV and a Class 37 that had to have their B2B's reset correctly, and then they traverse the pointwork without problem. I also have a Tower Brass E147 coach that has very deep flanged wheels which is currently having replacement bogies built for it.

 

As I've mentioned, all my pointwork is handbuilt to 31.5mm and I've used Intentio real ply laser cut sleepers with C&L bullhead rail and C&L 2-bolt chairs.

In the pictures below you can see the main feature of Talyllyn which is a double junction with a built in single slip and a three way turnout. The turnouts are approximately 2'6" long and the complex is a total of 5' in length, not including the facing crossover beyond it. That crossover is also circa 5' in length and on a sweeping curve. I too detest sharp curves and wanted as much of a transition as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

I can thoroughly recommend the Minerva Pannier tanks (I have a number of them) and also the Dapol Jinty and 08. As for rolling stock, there are quite a few good suppliers of RTR such as Dapol, Minerva and Heljan, all of which are good. I have a couple of the Lionheart/Dapol B'set coach sets and numerous wagon kits as well.

 

Please enjoy your trip into 7mm, I must say I'm looking forward as your OO layout was stunning to look through.

 

Jinty

[3 link]

Thanks Simon, lots to think about, but regarding S7, I don't want to run anything on anyone else's layout so it's a possibility...but, if I went down that road, I would have to join their society and buy everything from them, (have I got this right) I would also need to change loco wheels for their finer tolerences?

Regarding scale7, also you will probably need a good lathe as it is not just a matter of changing the b-t-b measurements to 33mm, the wheels have also got to be reprofiled . I know there are now some available , but I think most will still have to be turned.

 

Martyn.

[phil.c]

Thanks Jinty, What point plans are you working off, are they bought or can they be downloaded, also, a different construction method than soldered copper clad, I expect the chairs are glued but what about holding the rail itself in position to do this?...Lots of questions I'm afraid.

 

When I get back to the UK I need to upload Pen Y Bryn pictures as it's a shame that the majority of them are not viewable!

 

It would be difficult to scrap it for 0, here's some pics I have just found that are not shown.

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by phil.c

[Jintyman]

Thanks Jinty, What point plans are you working off, are they bought or can they be downloaded, also, a different construction method than soldered copper clad, I expect the chairs are glued but what about holding the rail itself in position to do this?...Lots of questions I'm afraid.

 

When I get back to the UK I need to upload Pen Y Bryn pictures as it's a shame that the majority of them are not viewable!

 

It would be difficult to scrap it for 0, here's some pics I have just found that are not shown.

 

 

 

  Lovely pictures.

 

The trackwork was drawn up on Templot, it's a free software download from Martin Wynne and you can tailor the track to suit the situation.

 

The sleepers are ply and chairs are plastic, glued with MEK, there is Butanone, but MEK is the same compound and considerably cheaper. The rail is held in place with the gauges and a weight. The glue has set in about  a couple of minutes, and nothing has moved on mine and it's been built about 2 years now. In fact I'd fitted one chair the wrong way around and I had a hell of a job removing it!!!

 

There is lots of help on the Handbuilt Track & Templot section of this forum.

 

Jinty  

[phil.c]

Thanks again Jinty, Templot looks the way to go.

 

Do you know the typical prototype curve used but in modelling feet ie radii?

[Simond]

Phil, 

 

start with the real thing, and scale it! 

 

But as a guide line, 6' / 1829 mm will do for anything.  There are lots of discussions about minimum radii, but I find that just because it will go round, doesn't mean it'll look reasonable doing it!  And couplings can become an issue on tighter curves.

 

But docks, etc, would use, "A switches", and the real thing might be down to 100', you could model at maybe 2' - 2'6" if you work only with 0-4-0s and steam-era wagons. 

 

I just looked at a Google Maps satellite image of part of Birkenhead docks and the radius there was around 180 feet, which would be 4', more or less.  It looks damn tight on the real thing!

 

best

Simon

[daifly]

Thanks Simon, lots to think about, but regarding S7, ....(snipped)...but, if I went down that road, I would have to join their society and buy everything from them, (have I got this right) I would also need to change loco wheels for their finer tolerences?

No, you don’t have it right! The only thing that you would ‘have’ to buy from the S7 Group would be the S7 Group-produced and commissioned items. A handful of S7 loco and tender wheel types have been commissioned from Slater’s but the vast majority of wheels will require reprofiling of standard FS Slater’s or other supplier’s wheels. Wagon and coach wheels in S7 are available from several sources. S7 gauges are also available from several sources.

 

In spite of Simon’s unnecessary ‘They’ll all try to get you to do S7’ comment in post#14 above, those of us that advocate such an option would ask only that you consider it when you are at the ‘clean sheet’ stage. It’s not for everyone for a host of reasons but don’t dismiss it out of ignorance.

 

Dave

[Western Star]

What Dave has written above is pretty much there or there abouts.

 

To build track in 7mm scale - either 0-FS or S7 then you need materials, templates and jigs (gauges and crossing assembly).  At this level there is not a lot of difference between 0-FS and S7 apart from the dimensions of the jigs.  If you wish, C&L can supply assembled crossing vees and common crossings in both 0-FS and S7.  So in respect of building track there is very little to choose between the two standards.  Making S7 track is no more difficult than doing the same thing in 0-FS.

 

The S7 Group Stores can even supply some assembly jigs for common crossings with clearances for 31.5mm trackwork.

 

Yes, there are some S7 specific chairs available from members of the S7 Group - those are predominately for adding detail to the common crossing although that is not a necessary requirement for smooth running.

 

Slater's Plastikard includes S7 wheels for carriages and wagons...  for sale to all irrespective of membership of the S7 Group.  Similarly with Peartree Engineering.

 

The S7 Group has commissioned Slaters to produce driving wheels to S7 standards, there are about 15 different wheels in the range at the moment.

 

There is a group of S7 modellers who meet in the area between Newport and Chippenham, four or five times a year.  If you wish I can arrange for one of that group to contact you with details of their meetings.

 

regards, Graham Beare