Preservation efforts thwarted

[sir douglas]

years ago in europe, germany or switzerland i think, some metal thieve broke into a museum an dstated cutting up an engine to take it, they were interupted but by then it was too late, the engine which was mid-late 1800 IIRC and the last survivor of its class had to scrapped by the museum as too much damage had been done

 

A4 Common wealth of Australia was offered to said country by BR but it was rejected and cut up

[John_Miles]

Hot boxes only started to be a problem on 4Fs from around 1930 onwards when the LMS tried to save money by using a cheaper oil. Even then the incidence of hot boxes on 4Fs and other Midland locos was much better than on many other LMS engines. For example Super Ds were noticeably worse but the myth of the Derby axlebox (apparently started by E.S. Cox - ex-L&Y) is so well established that it has become  the accepted history. Fortunately the LMS kept fairly good record (Stamp liked statistics) and so the facts are available for those who don't like fake news.

[LMS2968]

...and the Garratts and Austin 7s?

 

I find the cheap oil story difficult to digest. A hot box took an engine out of traffic and potentially blocked the running line to following traffic. The engine would be stopped - so not earning revenue - for some time, and the damage might involve a journal's being turned - a works job - or an axle replaced if the scoring took it below scrapping size. The potential costs were very high, probably more than any savings against quality oil. I doubt Josiah Stamp would condone that.

 

What evidence do you have to support this theory?

Edited April 6, 2018 by LMS2968

[John_Miles]

...and the Garratts and Austin 7s?

 

The Austin 7s like the Super Ds suffered from being powerful engines with inside cylinders which limited the size of the axlebox which could be used. The Garratts - put that down to stupidity. Incidentally, when Stanier came to the LMS some 4Fs were fitted with GWR style axleboxes - which were found to be no better than the Midland boxes.

[LMS2968]

No, we're back to size again. The Stanier boxes were no bigger than Midland 4F ones; they couldn't be without major modifications. But these could have been built into the Austin Sevens, at least as far as diameter goes. This use of the same box could also be put down to stupidity.

 

Did you read E. Stuart Cox's memo? He mentions the Ds only as to the bearing size, he makes no mention of their suffering hot boxes, even in comparison.

[Compound2632]

Did you read E. Stuart Cox's memo? He mentions the Ds only as to the bearing size, he makes no mention of their suffering hot boxes, even in comparison.

 

That's one memo, v. the records John cites.

[LMS2968]

So what and where are these records? And that memo came from the top. Well, two down from the top, at least!

[Compound2632]

So what and where are these records? And that memo came from the top. Well, two down from the top, at least!

 

But is only a snapshot of the situation.

[Dava]

I detect a thread drifting towards LNW/MR/LMS loco lubrication systems rather than thwarted preservation efforts, maybe it merits its own thread to share the new knowledge?

[Compound2632]

I detect a thread drifting towards LNW/MR/LMS loco lubrication systems rather than thwarted preservation efforts, maybe it merits its own thread to share the new knowledge?

 

Quite right - done.

[Compound2632]

Nearer topic and regretting those lost Midland engines, most of the new-build projects around are directed at main-line capable engines. But from the point of view of railway preservation as education, surely the case should be made for reconstruction of historically important classes from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries? I wouldn't disagree that the George the Fifth class doesn't fall into that category. But how about a Lady of the Lake, or Jeanie Deans? Also, of course, with appropriate rolling stock...

[rodent279]

The subject of Midland axleboxes is complex, it must be admitted, but to give an indication of the problem, here goes.

 

The Midland boxes were undersized. This was deliberate policy as it allowed some frame flexibility to deal with tight curvature; they were on the small size as regards diameter, but also as to length. This was fine in Midland days when loads, and therefore piston thrusts, were severely limited; excess loads were dealt with by adding an assistant loco. The boxes therefore were not stressed to any great extent, and hot boxes were not common.

 

While this was fine before 1923, from then on the 4Fs were spread over the enlarged system, where the strict loading restrictions did not apply. Hot boxes then began to appear in sufficiently large numbers to cause concern. Remedial action wasn't possible on any economic basis: enlarging the boxes would require major frame modifications around the horn gaps, and the inside eccentrics prevented increasing their length.

 

To be fair to the 4Fs, they did a lot of good work over many decades; their boxes were at worst marginal, and the locos were not so much bad as not particularly good. They had several other issues besides the boxes: poor steaming and sheared crankpins being on the list.

 

The problem was that these self same boxes were applied to bigger engines with much higher piston thrusts: the Garratts and Austin Sevens, and Derby must be held responsible for this. Here, their size made them far less than marginal but inadequate. The Austin Sevens appeared in 1929. Goods engines generally have long lives, but in 1949 61 of them, over a third of the class, were withdrawn, with the same number disappearing over the next two years. The remainder were transferred to former L&YR lines, where shorter runs allowed time for the boxes to cool.

 

If you want contemporary accounts, try a memo from E Stuart Cox to S J. Symes, P.A. to the CME, 09-06-31:

 

"0-8-0 Standard Type 7

 

Hot Boxes. The right driving boxes on these engines have been very troublesome during 1930. In some cases it was found that side thrust had caused the heating and this may have been due to inaccuracies in the machining of the box. Some improvement has been obtained by fitting end thrust pads as is done with the No.4 class Goods, which are also fitted with these boxes. Figures for 1930 out of 120 engines are: Driving Boxes 45; Others 8. The driving journals, which are only 8½" wide as against 9" on the G2 class, appear to be somewhat overloaded."

 

Some of the engines were less than two years old at this time, and in fact some were yet to enter traffic.

 

Have a read of J.W.P Rowledge, who was a mechanical inspector at the time. It's all there.

Plus of course the Horwich Crab was blighted with those small boxes.

[jim.snowdon]

Plus of course the Horwich Crab was blighted with those small boxes.

Are you certain about that, given that a great deal of the loco design had already been done and materials put in hand before the dead hand of Derby struck, plus, the Crabs were not as far as I am aware plagued with hot boxes to the extent that other Midland locos were. That they were outside cylindered would have helped anyway, as this results in lower axlebox loads, but then, they were also more powerful than almost everything that Derby had designed under the Midland.

 

Jim

[LMS2968]

Plus of course the Horwich Crab was blighted with those small boxes.

Nope, their boxes were of L&YR descent and much larger. They could run a hot box were far, far from renowned for it.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Didn't a certain Mr (later Sir) William Stanier scrapped a couple of MR locos that had been kept "safe" in Derby's paint shop?

 

Also did he (or was it Churchward) earlier scrap some "preserved" Broad Gauge engines at Swindon?

 

Sentiment and running a profitable railway don't always go hand in hand.

[Zomboid]

Nearer topic and regretting those lost Midland engines, most of the new-build projects around are directed at main-line capable engines. But from the point of view of railway preservation as education, surely the case should be made for reconstruction of historically important classes from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries? I wouldn't disagree that the George the Fifth class doesn't fall into that category. But how about a Lady of the Lake, or Jeanie Deans? Also, of course, with appropriate rolling stock...

The thing with locos is that you only need one per train. A representative train of 1910 era carriages would probably need at least 4 vehicles, and would they actually be up to the standards that Mr and Mrs Average would expect on their visit to a heritage railway?

 

Though you're right, replica pre-grouping locos would be more significant in terms of gap filling than things like the Clan or P2.

[jonny777]

years ago in europe, germany or switzerland i think, some metal thieve broke into a museum an dstated cutting up an engine to take it, they were interupted but by then it was too late, the engine which was mid-late 1800 IIRC and the last survivor of its class had to scrapped by the museum as too much damage had been done

 

A4 Common wealth of Australia was offered to said country by BR but it was rejected and cut up

 

 

Interesting that BR were offering locos to cities and countries; but if Joe Public wanted to buy one they were charged full scrap value. 

[brack]

The thing with locos is that you only need one per train. A representative train of 1910 era carriages would probably need at least 4 vehicles, and would they actually be up to the standards that Mr and Mrs Average would expect on their visit to a heritage railway?

 

Though you're right, replica pre-grouping locos would be more significant in terms of gap filling than things like the Clan or P2.

I get the impression (I may be wrong, but this is how it feels when at the NRM/locomotion) that there's an awful lot of royal train coaches in the national collection but not a lot of normal stock from similar time periods. Heritage lines themselves are often reliant on mk1s or similar. Obviously these are generalisations and some lines have managed to break the mould. Not suggesting that we take a match to the royal saloons, but it would be nice to have the rank and file represented too. Happily I get the feeling that this is happening - the Furness, NSR and GCR (and no doubt others) are making efforts to get trains of heritage stock running, the GCR stock is intended to go with the new 4-4-0 project.

[Compound2632]

The Lynton & Barnstaple's "Heritage Carriages" - with varying amounts of original material - are a superb example. Probably easier to achieve on a narrow gauge line.

[LMS2968]

Yes, WAS did order the scrapping of many already preserved relics on the LMS, just as his mentor, GJC, dis on the GWR.

[LMS2968]

Interesting that BR were offering locos to cities and countries; but if Joe Public wanted to buy one they were charged full scrap value.

The difference being that the cities would plinth them and not attempt to run them . Those for other countries, of course, the matter did not arise.

[royaloak]

Every preserved railway has suffered thefts, vandalism and losses.

With the excellent news that a pensioner who killed a serial burglar wont be charged I think it opens up the possibility of people actually being allowed to protect their property from the scum of the world!

 

Linky-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/06/pensioner-arrested-murder-career-burglar-told-wont-face-charges/

[bubbles2]

Barnstaple to Ilfracombe was a preservation effort from the 1970s, I think there was some scandal around it and the money disappeared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Storey]

The Lynton & Barnstaple's "Heritage Carriages" - with varying amounts of original material - are a superb example. Probably easier to achieve on a narrow gauge line.

 

Totally agree. The FFFFestiniog is prime in this respect, and deserves recognition for its huge contribution to Narrow Gauge legacy, by recreating the past but also working out how to fund it by building new. The Tallylllynnnn has also done much. But the railway that is doing most to re-create its past is the Corris (given the Tally won't give back the loco and carriages it "stole"  ), by building new examples of its unique locos and carriages, on a shoestring. I became a member of the Corris, after having originally been with the Ffesstinioggg, because I knew how to spell it.

 

But seriously, there are lessons to be learned from our tiny brethren. Admittedly costs are very different, but we do need to understand why? It cannot just be the size.

[brack]

Yes, WAS did order the scrapping of many already preserved relics on the LMS, just as his mentor, GJC, dis on the GWR.

Both men were trying hard to change existing traditions and practices, stamping out years of "that's how we've always done things round here". I wonder if it was a deliberate attempt to show that the works was no longer looking to the past, or just that both men had a blind spot for preservation?