Gresley/Thompson/Peppercorn and CME succession (what if? scenarios)

[Corbs]

I have questions about CMEs of the LNER.

 

As we know, Gresley died in office in 1941, two months before retirement, and Thompson was appointed CME. Then Thompson retired in 1946, Peppercorn replaced him until 1949.

 

If Gresley hadn't died, would he have had a hand in his succession, or was it wholly down to the board? 

If Thompson wasn't around, would Peppercorn have been the automatic next choice or was there anyone else in the picture?

 

Thank you for any pointers on this.

[bike2steam]

Any mechanical engineer that came up via Marlborough College would've been considered. (tic)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If Gresley had remained in life and sufficiently good health, he would also have been retained in office past retirement age is the usual thought. The war effort required every skilled engineer available, and many stayed on past normal retirement age.  That in turn released younger men for war effort projects and programmes in addition to or instead of the 'day job'. With his proven works organisation background, that would most likely have released Thompson for a war production role. Probably would have been knighted for that...

[Corbs]

Ah, interesting. So I take it there was no indication that he was planning on retiring?

[Big James]

Didn’t the LNER approach the Southern to see if they could have Bulleid back. Maybe if Gresley had lived a few years longer maybe Bulleid would’ve been convinced to go back instead of going to Ireland.

 

Big james

[Nearholmer]

Ah, but, by then it would have been apparent what “interesting” things he was capable of without a moderating boss above him. Would they have wanted his particular brand of brilliance?

[Corbs]

Were there many examples of CMEs moving railways once they were in the CME position? 

[runs as required]

Were there many examples of CMEs moving railways once they were in the CME position?

 

Between pre-Grouping ones yes e.g. Drummond and from Ireland to Britain e.g. Aspinall

[Corbs]

For some reason it seems less likely that a Big Four CME would move to become another?

[jim.snowdon]

I have questions about CMEs of the LNER.

 

As we know, Gresley died in office in 1941, two months before retirement, and Thompson was appointed CME. Then Thompson retired in 1946, Peppercorn replaced him until 1949.

 

If Gresley hadn't died, would he have had a hand in his succession, or was it wholly down to the board? 

 

If Thompson wasn't around, would Peppercorn have been the automatic next choice or was there anyone else in the picture?

 

Thank you for any pointers on this.

The usual, if not inevitable, rules of seniority would apply, varied only by the next in line either being promoted sideways or being of sufficient age to retire first (as Robinson did in making way for Gresley).

 

Jim

[luckymucklebackit]

According to Wikipedia, Thompson was well down the list of candidates, the LNER did approach the Southern to see if they could have Bulleid and were given permission to talk to him but he declined the post, J.F. Harrison, was also considered but at 42 years old, was considered too young to take the post. The LNER board then turned to Arthur Peppercorn for the CME role, but Thompson held seniority and influence amongst other LNER officials and used this political experience to sidestep Peppercorn and take the title of CME.

 

Jim

[Corbs]

Ah, so it looks like Peppercorn may have been the next most likely candidate if Gresley had not died?

[Zomboid]

For some reason it seems less likely that a Big Four CME would move to become another?

Though the Southern may not have been as prestigious as the LNER, particularly if steam was your main focus.

[bike2steam]

Perhaps Bulleid's requirement for experimentation couldn't be assured because of the LNER's precarious financial position ??

Edited April 17, 2018 by bike2steam

[jonny777]

Didn’t the LNER approach the Southern to see if they could have Bulleid back. Maybe if Gresley had lived a few years longer maybe Bulleid would’ve been convinced to go back instead of going to Ireland.

 

Big james

 

 

 

Goodness me, a turf burning W1? That would have been a novelty.  

[pH]

Were there many examples of CMEs moving railways once they were in the CME position? 

 

 

Between pre-Grouping ones yes e.g. Drummond and from Ireland to Britain e.g. Aspinall

 

Every one of the Glasgow and South Western Railway's locomotive superintendents/CMEs came from and/or went to similar positions with other railway companies.

 

Patrick Stirling went to the Great Northern

James Stirling went to the South Eastern

Hugh Smellie came from the Maryport and Carlisle and went to the Caledonian

James Manson came from the Great North of Scotland

Peter Drummond came from the Highland

Robert Whitelegg had been locomotive superintendent of the London, Tilbury and Southend, though he had left that position on the takeover by the Midland several years before. 

[AMJ]

If the war had not got in the way I think that we would have seen the electrification of sections of the east coast line. Surely the EM1/76 were the last locomotives designed by a pre nationalisation company to be operated until the 1980's, most other locomotives were killed off 30 years earlier.

[brack]

If the war had not got in the way I think that we would have seen the electrification of sections of the east coast line. Surely the EM1/76 were the last locomotives designed by a pre nationalisation company to be operated until the 1980's, most other locomotives were killed off 30 years earlier.

If the other war hadn't got in the way we'd have seen ECML under wires a bit earlier.

You might argue that the class 08 is essentially the same as the class 11/12 which were supplied to/ordered by the LMS and SR (I'd argue there's less differences between those separate classes than there are differences between black 5s). Having said that, I'm not sure you can really claim they're designed by the LMS, they're very much an EE design in my book.

[coachmann]

What did Peppercord actually design? All the groundwork was prepared by Thompson....Individual sets of motion, 2-6-0, 4-6-0, 7P and 8P Pacifics, 2-6-4T, ex GC 2-8-0, new boilers, new carriages etc etc.

[brack]

What did Peppercord actually design? All the groundwork was prepared by Thompson....Individual sets of motion, 2-6-0, 4-6-0, 7P and 8P Pacifics, 2-6-4T, ex GC 2-8-0, new boilers, new carriages etc etc.

His pacifics are certainly an aesthetic improvement on Thompson's ugly efforts - cylinders in the right place, so I'd give him credit for that! (To be fair to Thompson the B1 and K1 are very good looking locos indeed).

[Steamport Southport]

If the war had not got in the way I think that we would have seen the electrification of sections of the east coast line. Surely the EM1/76 were the last locomotives designed by a pre nationalisation company to be operated until the 1980's, most other locomotives were killed off 30 years earlier.

 

It seems that way. But the last of the Class 76s only lasted a bit more than a decade after BR steam went. Thirteen years at most.

 

 

 

Jason

[Nimbus]

His pacifics are certainly an aesthetic improvement on Thompson's ugly efforts - cylinders in the right place, so I'd give him credit for that! (To be fair to Thompson the B1 and K1 are very good looking locos indeed).

You can cross the K1 off that list - that one's down to Peppercorn!

 

The NIm.

[coachmann]

You can cross the K1 off that list - that one's down to Peppercorn!

 

The NIm.

Really? So who prepared the groundwork.. Peppercorn?  I think not. He simply cut a hole in the footplate ahead of the cylinders. 

 

When it came to Pacifics, he took a Thompson boiler, married it to a Gresley chassis, fitted three sets of motion and called it a Peppercorn A1. You can't kid a kidder....

Edited April 19, 2018 by coachmann

[brack]

You can cross the K1 off that list - that one's down to Peppercorn!

 

The NIm.

essentially just a production version of the Thompson Rebuild of MacCailin Mor using a chopped B1 boiler and cylinders. I know that Peppercorn was involved in the rebuilding, but it occurred during Thompson's reign and under his direction. You might also argue that Gresley had something significant to do with it as he'd provided the K4 to start with and the B17 boiler was the basis for the 100A. It gets a bit messy sometimes doesn't it!

[Ken.W]

Ah, so it looks like Peppercorn may have been the next most likely candidate if Gresley had not died?

Had Gresley survived longer and stayed in office, then Thompson would also have been at, or too close to, retirement, so succession would likely have been straight to Peppercorn

 

Were there many examples of CMEs moving railways once they were in the CME position? 

Also T.W.Worsdell, GER to NER

 

For some reason it seems less likely that a Big Four CME would move to become another?

Well, it didn't happen, but then there was just four of them at any one time rather than 100+

The nearest it came was Stanier and Bullied moving from an Assistant's position on one Group to CME on another

 

Would Bullied have been most the likely to succeed Gresley if he hadn't already moved to the Southern by that time?