Oxford carriage sidings and parcels dock in the 1980s

[jamespetts]

I am reviving this thread, as I am currently in the process of calculating how many rakes of NSE carriages and how many NSE DMUs that I should need to run the "Network Express" services to Paddington (including extended to Banbury), "Cotswold Express" services to Worcester, and stopping services to Bicester, Reading and Banbury according to the actual 1989 timetable (assuming that the fictional portmanteau station that I am creating in model form is taken to be Oxford for these purposes).

 

The timetable suggests that up to 8 rakes of NSE mk.1/mk.2 carriages would be required for the weekday service, all but two which would originate from Oxford from 06:00 and later, one originating from Banbury and the other from Hereford. In total, there are 8 up departures before the first down arrival at 09:21 (which would give the 06:00 departure plenty of time to provide the stock for this arrival). Presumably, the stock forming the service starting at Hereford would be stabled there overnight, but what about the stock for all the services originating at Oxford - would all of this have been kept in the carriage sidings (i.e. all 6 rakes), or would some have been stored elsewhere and run ECS to Oxford? What about the stock for the service from Banbury leaving Oxford at 07:27 - would this have been stored at Banbury overnight? Likewise, the locomotives - would these have run light from Old Oak Common (Reading, I presume, servicing only DMUs), or would they have been stabled overnight at Oxford?

 

As to the DMUs, would any of these have been stabled overnight at Oxford? The timetable suggests that 2 would either be stabled overnight or would have run ECS from Reading in the very early morning, and that in any event three sets would have run to Reading ECS in the evening.

 

If anyone can shed any light on these matters, I should be very grateful.

Edited October 10, 2018 by jamespetts

[rob D2]

Interesting questions. You need someone with an official BR working timetable from the period I think.

Reading did of course service locos as well as units, but pictures of your period are scarce.

 

Never seen any pics of loco hauled stock stabled at Banbury , only units in the sidings to the north. I’m sure I’ve seen reference to ECS off the Paddington - Banbury ( via HW ) returning empty to the London area

[Rugd1022]

There would be no reason to leave anything stabled at Banbury really, as the loco, stock and crew would all need to be back at Old Oak.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Rugd1022

[brian daniels]

ECS Oxford to Banbury in the morning as Rugd said no loco hauled stock stabled at Banbury. The two loco hauled Hereford to Padd and return evening services went to and from Bristol ECS from Hereford.

[jamespetts]

Thank you all for that.

 

I have re-analysed the timetable and realised that I had made an error earlier such that the diagram appears to be able to be run with 7 rakes rather than 8, albeit this requires some ECS workings which are at least slightly odd (e.g. a mid-morning London-Oxford ECS and a late evening Oxford-London ECS).

 

If I assume that the Banbury train was stored at Banbury overnight and the Hereford train was stored at Hereford overnight, I can just about squeeze the remaining 5 rakes into the carriage sidings on the visible part of the layout; however, I note what you write about the ECS workings.

 

The Banbury to London ECS is interesting, but it is hard to see how this fits into the timetable. There is an 0727 departure from Oxford in the morning which originates in Banbury (there being no down trains before the 0921 arrival, excluding the 0701h arrival at Oxford on the London-Edinburgh service (formed of Inter-City stock) and the 0820h arrival at Oxford which was the 0718 departure from London Paddington, bound for Wolverhampton (I have yet to work out whether this used Inter-City or Network SouthEast stock, but, either way, this could not form the stock for the Banbury departure).

 

The only other Banbury through train is the 1827h arrival at Oxford which formed the 1720h departure from London Paddington arriving at Banbury at 1855 (having called at Tackley and Heyford). Would this have gone back to Oxford (or even London) for the night ECS only to come back to Banbury for the 0700h departure from Banbury (calling at Oxford 0727) the next morning?

 

The ECS Hereford - Bristol - London (?) is even more interesting. Would there have been a further ECS back via Bristol to Hereford the next morning to make the early morning Hereford departure (there being one locomotive hauled train between London and Hereford via Oxford each day)?

 

One final question: the timetable that I have suggests that there comes a time in the mid-afternoon when the down Costwold Express leaves Oxford (1205h). This slot would normally be filled in most hours with a terminating service from which the next up departure could run, but not in this case. The next up departure is at 1300. Unless there are 6 rakes in the carriage sidings (ignoring any running ECS to Banbury) at the beginning of the day rather than the 5 that are needed for the whole of the morning's service, or unless there is a compensating down ECS all the way from London sometime in the morning (which would be odd), there are not enough rakes of carriages to form the 1300h departure. The only other possibility is if the carriages for the 0906h Birmingham to Reading departure, calling at Oxford at 1026h and arriving at Reading at 1051h then runs ECS to Oxford to form the 1300h departure to London. However, I cannot find any pictures of this train and whether it uses NSE or Inter-City stock: I know that the later 1106h departure from Birmingham to Oxford uses Inter-City stock. Even if this Birmingham train did use NSE stock, it is not clear how it would have got to Birmingham on time, as the first service that goes no further than Wolverhampton does not get there until too late to form the 0906h departure (and probably too late even to form the 1006h departure).

 

Thank you again all for your help: it is most useful.

Edited October 14, 2018 by jamespetts

[caradoc]

I have a slightly vague memory from Summer 1984 of travelling from Paddington to Oxford on an evening peak loco-hauled train which continued to Banbury, and stupidly left a bag behind when I alighted ! I knew, or found out, that the stock returned ECS to Oxford, and when it arrived in Platform 1 I was able to retrieve my lost property. IIRC the stock was then propelled into the Up Carriage Sidings.

As I say this is a vague memory and I stand to be corrected.

[HillsideDepot]

My closest Working Timetable is for Summer 1987, and the 0727 equivalent is an Oxford - Paddington which is formed with ECS from Old Oak.

 

I do have a Station Working Book for Paddington for autumn 1989, but only the Sunday version. For what it's worth the Sundays 1345 to Hereford is formed with set OM.230, ECS from Old Oak, which had previously worked ECS Oxford - Old Oak late on Saturday evening. It returns as the 1815 from Hereford, going ECS to Old Oak at 2139  before forming the 0437 ECS to Westbury on Monday morning. That is a Mk2A set, and would be an NSE one.

 

1832 to Hereford is formed of set OM.280 which comes Up to Paddington as the 1150 from Plymouth, and visits Old Oak in between that and the Hereford. From the formation, this is an InterCity working with Mk2D and an RMB (unstaffed). There is no note of what it does when it arrives at Hereford, but ECS to Bristol is quite likely (why is ECS to Old Oak via Bristol assumed above?).

 

Only little snippets, and probably not much help, but perhaps showing that trying to work these things out without working documents (or detailed observation) is very difficult.

[leekman]

For the 0654 Banbury - Paddington non stop the ECS leaves Oxford 0528 MO and Tues - Fri leaves Old Oak Common at 0413. For the 0700 Banbury - Paddington the ECS leaves Oxford at 0600. This is for the May - October 1989 WTT.

 

The 1720 Paddington - Banbury arrived at 1855 and formed a 1935 - Paddington 1F83.  There was also a non stop from Paddington 1G58  1812 arrived 1948 leaving as 5G58 ECS at 2000 FO to Oxford, Mon - Thurs to Old Oak Common.

 Hope that helps

[jamespetts]

Thank you all for that: that is most helpful. Trying to piece this together is indeed difficult! As I am not actually producing an exact model of Oxford, but of a fictional location based on a portmanteau of Oxford and Didcot, it should suffice for my purposes to have a plausible schedule based on realistic service frequencies and timings rather than an exact replica, although it would be extra delightful to be very close to the real timetable if possible (and to be able to keep track of what rake of carriages is supposed to be where).

 

From what I can work out so far, the non-stop Paddington - Banbury services ran via High Wycombe and would not have travelled via Oxford or Didcot. Can I check which set formed the 1300 departure to Oxford from Paddington? This is currently a particularly tricky part of the timetable at present, requiring, from what I can work out, either an odd ECS or a set of carriages to remain stabled at Oxford throughout the morning peak, which seems improbable. I have just been redesigning the track plan so that I can fit in 6 rakes of carriages in the carriage sidings rather than 5, which I have just about managed to achieve, but it becomes difficult needing to have 7 rakes in the up main fiddle yards at the same time.

 

Quite what compromises have to be made I will have to consider, but knowing more about the 1300h departure would be especially helpful. Thank you all for your help so far: it has been very interesting and very useful.

[jamespetts]

I have managed to track down (from a link on this forum) a BR Western region passenger train working manual for the summer 1989 timetable, which has been extremely helpful, as I am able to see which set inbound to Paddington from Oxford formed which set outbound, and what sort of stock worked the routes.

 

From this, I have discovered that all weekday through trains to/from Hereford were worked by HSTs (the locomotive hauled trains seemed only to have run on Sundays in 1989) and that there was a great deal of inter-working with the Oxford sets and sets to Newbury/Westbury and short peak time workings to Reading and Didcot. As a result of the latter, it will not be possible to keep a full track of the carriage rakes as I had initially hoped in the sense that rake A on departing from the layout will return exactly when rake A would have returned in the real timetable, but I can at least have a system in which, if rake A departs, rake A will not be seen again until it has had time to make a full round trip including all necessary shunting at the terminal end.

 

I have also discovered a very early morning (0450h) Old Oak Common - Oxford train. I am not sure when this arrives, but that at least makes it plausible for me to have a fairly early morning ECS arrival as a balancing working, dealing then with the problem of the 1300h departure.

 

The result of all this is that I am able to run a realistic passenger timetable with only 6 rakes of NSE carriages, albeit this does require an evening (sometime between circa 2200 and 0000) ECS Oxford - OOC ECS to make the numbers balance (and such a run would not be evident in the manual as it would have not have worked into or out of Paddington), which I will have to assume is correct unless told otherwise.

 

I have also spotted an error in my DMU timetable, having omitted the 0518h Oxford to Paddington service, which means more units stabled at Oxford overnight and fewer ECS runs in the evening.

[The Pilotman]

James, if you haven’t already discovered it, Martin Loader's excellent website (www.hondawanderer.com)

has lots of photos from the area and era you are interested in. You might be able to pick up some useful information from the captions.

I admire your diligence in being as accurate as possible with the coach diagrams, even though it will cost you a fair bit of money just in order to have the carriage sidings properly stocked for the start of the morning service. I can help with something that you asked about last night. I am fairly sure there was a late morning ECS from Old Oak to Oxford; I seem to recall one passing through Reading (where I worked) just before midday. I wish I had kept all of the working timetables and station working books that I had from that time but sadly they all went a long time ago.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Western Aviator

[jamespetts]

I have discovered that website: it is excellent and had mayn splendid pictures. Thank you for the information on the ECS - that is very helpful indeed.

[jamespetts]

Incidentally, a mid-morning down ECS on top of the very early morning down ECS would imply that there would be two balancing up ECS workings in the evening; do you happen to know anything about these?

 

This also means that it is possible for the scenic area carriage sidings to have to accommodate only 5 rather than 6 rakes, although 6 separate rakes would still be needed as it would seem that the very early morning (0450h) ECS would arrive just in time for the 0600h (or possibly 0610h) departure, thus probably requiring all rakes to be in the scenic area at once even if only 5 need to be stabled there. The very early ECS would also suggest that the train would be turned around in the station without using the carriage sidings, meaning that I will need to have an uncoupling magnet in the station to deal with this.

 

Edit: More working with the timetable and correcting an error in which I had forgotten to mark one of the Hereford services as being formed by an HST, it now seems that the timetable balances only if I remove the Banbury - Oxford ECS working remembered fondly by Caradoc. There is also the slightly odd phenomenon of an ECS arrival from the 0450h from Old Oak arriving at Oxford at around the same time (assuming a ~1h journey time) as the 0600h ECS from Oxford to Banbury would be departing (why not have a through Old Oak to Banbury ECS in that case?).

 

Does anyone know which service that the 0450h ECS departure from Old Oak Common to Banbury would have formed on arrival at Oxford?

Edited October 19, 2018 by jamespetts

[leekman]

The 0450 ECS from Old Oak 5F09 arrived Oxford 0613 at the Up Platform Line and would form 1F09 0635 Oxford - Paddington.

[HillsideDepot]

There is also the slightly odd phenomenon of an ECS arrival from the 0450h from Old Oak arriving at Oxford at around the same time (assuming a ~1h journey time) as the 0600h ECS from Oxford to Banbury would be departing (why not have a through Old Oak to Banbury ECS in that case?).

 

 

You have to consider the bigger picture, and how the stock works over several days, even weeks. Coaches need maintenance, which was done at Old Oak, so sets have to cycle around visits to the depot. The "Oxford" sets can't work from Oxford and back to Oxford day after day, at some point they will have to visit Old Oak for servicing, plus of course they are also working Newburys and a Westbury. Not only that but you want your fleet to do the same mileage over time, so again coaches will cycle around the workings. Day time ECS, which seems to appear to be an oddity to you could be sets being worked in the peaks and maintained in the off peak. An ECS might seem wasteful, but might mean a reduction in sets overall, and saves the depot standing idle all day - with the consequent additional pressure overnight servicing.

 

Then of course the fuel capacity of the locos needs to be considered, running through to Banbury might mean the loco would run out before it can next visit a fuel point, and there is also the human element - crew duties, and route knowledge; there's no point running an Old Oak crew through to Banbury if they run out of hours before they get back to Paddington. Or, equally as disruptive they might get back to Paddington in time, but do they then have time to do anything useful before needing a break? Pointless them doing Banbury if they then need a break in the middle of the peak at Paddington, when an Oxford allows them to get to Paddington and back to Oxford or Newbury for their break (I don't know the details of the actual crew workings and relief points; just trying to show the various aspects which need to come together to make the railway work).

 

And all of that is why I scheduled buses & drivers for a large part of my career, why I find railways so fascinating, and why my layouts need a purpose and supporting Working Time Tables and some cases even loco diagrams!

[jamespetts]

Excellent - thank you both: that is extremely helpful.

 

One query in relation to long ECS workings generally - why run them ECS rather than in service? Was there some reason for this?