WR route availability on the Ilfracombe branch

[Chris Higgs]

Does anyone know the route availability for the Ilfracombe branch for WR locos. There are plenty of photos there of Warships, which I think had RA Red, but earlier steam photos all seem to show 43XX and 2251 as the largest locos used.

 

Chris Higgs

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that for the GW, the issue would have been over the North Devon between Norton Fitzwarren and Barnstaple rather than from Barnstaple to Ilfracombe.

[dpgibbons]

Irwell's North Devon Line says that GWR locos working to Ilfracombe had their steps cut back to negotiate Barnstaple viaduct, which presumably curtailed guest appearances.

[Rivercider]

The 1934 SR Western Appendix to the WTT lists maximum passenger train loads for between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe for GWR locos.

 

2-6-0 Class No.43       190 tons or 8 coaches of 24t each

2-6-2T Class No.45     170 tons or 7 coaches of 24t each

4-4-0 Bulldog class      145 tons or 6 coaches of 24t each

0-6-0 'Standard' goods  120 tons or 5 coaches of 24t each

 

cheers

[Chris Higgs]

The 1934 SR Western Appendix to the WTT lists maximum passenger train loads for between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe for GWR locos.

 

2-6-0 Class No.43       190 tons or 8 coaches of 24t each

2-6-2T Class No.45     170 tons or 7 coaches of 24t each

4-4-0 Bulldog class      145 tons or 6 coaches of 24t each

0-6-0 'Standard' goods  120 tons or 5 coaches of 24t each

 

cheers

 

I wonder if a Bulldog ever made it to Ilfracombe.

 

Chris

[dpgibbons]

Yes - I'm looking at a pic in The North Devon Line dated prior to 1930 of Bulldog 3348 on Heddon Bank with 6 GWR coaches and an M7 banker behind.

[Chris Higgs]

So thanks for all the information. The photos I have seen of Warships are after the GWR North Devon line closed, and so have come from Exeter over the SR metals. The GWR route from Taunton was Yellow route restriction and as noted only modified GWR locos with steps reduced could have made it to Ilfracombe.

 

Chris

[wagonman]

So thanks for all the information. The photos I have seen of Warships are after the GWR North Devon line closed, and so have come from Exeter over the SR metals. The GWR route from Taunton was Yellow route restriction and as noted only modified GWR locos with steps reduced could have made it to Ilfracombe.

 

Chris

 

 

Bulldogs and 43xx moguls were Blue rated engines... I think the restriction on the Ilfracombe line was one of gauge rather than weight – GWR carriages with lower footboards were banned too.

[Chris Higgs]

Bulldogs and 43xx moguls were Blue rated engines... I think the restriction on the Ilfracombe line was one of gauge rather than weight – GWR carriages with lower footboards were banned too.

 

So perhaps the North Devon was Blue, otherwise how would these locos have got as far as Barnstaple? It's Yellow on the route map I have seen.

 

Chris

[TheSignalEngineer]

I travelled several times from Ilfracombe to Taunton behind 43xx Class locos in the late 1950s and early 1960s, with an N Class pilot as far as Barnstaple Junction. I think it may have been 1956 when I did it calling at all three Barnstaple stations with a reversal and engine change at Victoria Road.

[wagonman]

So perhaps the North Devon was Blue, otherwise how would these locos have got as far as Barnstaple? It's Yellow on the route map I have seen.

 

Chris

 

 

It may have been up-graded later. I don't remember what locos were used in earlier GWR times, but it was definitely Blue in BR days.

[7007GreatWestern]

According to "GWR Service Timetable Appendices 1945" (Bradford Barton) only the following GWR classes were authorised between Barnstaple Junction and Ilfracombe:-

 

0-6-0 23xx, 24xx, 25xx (ie Dean Goods)

2-6-2T 45xx, 55xx

0-6-0 2251 Class

2-6-0 43xx-73xx

4-4-0 33xx, 34xx "Bulldog"

 

There is a remark that "Engines working this stretch of the line have steps cut back to width of 8ft 4inches." Presumably this is a reference to the reduced clearance on Barnstaple viaduct mentioned earlier. It does suggest  that there was in effect a dedicated "fleet" of locos kept at Taunton for use over the Ilfracombe line and this seems to be borne out by the available photographs. The same few locos appear again and again! 6372 seems to have been the 'doyen' of locomotives used on the line - a fine performer by all accounts!

 

In turns of weight restriction as mentioned earlier the real obstacle to running heavier GWR locos on the Ilfracombe line was that they could only reach it via the Norton Fitzwarren - Barnstaple route. This line was in turn severely restricted by the spectacular viaducts at Tone and Filleigh. 43xxs were restricted to 15mph over these structures so one assumes that was their maximum load!

 

https://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/news-photo/castle-hill-viaduct-3-july-1953-news-photo/102728352#castle-hill-viaduct-3-july-1953-picture-id102728352

 

I realise this isn't the line of immediate interest to you, but Micheal J. Fox's "Scene From The Past No. 43: Railways in and around Taunton" has some fabulous photos of the Taunton - Barnstaple line and is highly recommended. 

 

Andy.

Edited May 12, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[The Stationmaster]

The list in 1962 was as follows for Barnstaple Jcn - ilfracombe -

 

Route Restriction  - Yellow

 

Engines authorised in one publication32XX (i.e 2251), 55XX, and 36XX. (i.e. 57XX/8750)

 

Engines authorised in another (contemporaneous) publication - 32XX. 55XX, and 73XX (i.e. 43XX)

 

Width restriction of 8ft 4 inches maximum applied to all footsteps between rail level and 1ft 9ins above rail level.

 

At that date the restrictions for Norton Fitzwarren - Barnstaple Jcn were as follows -

 

Route restriction - Yellow

 

engines authorised - All Uncoloured and Yellow engines', 73XX, M7 (limited to 25 mph and not to be assisted by any other engine)  N, and West Country (except rebuilt engines) - permitted an an emergencybetween Morebath Jcn and Barnstaple Jcn at a maximum speed of 20 mph and all lower rertrictions ot be rigorously observed especially 15 mph over castle Hill Viaduct, West Country class not to be coupled to any other engine.

[wagonman]

The list in 1962 was as follows for Barnstaple Jcn - ilfracombe -

 

Route Restriction  - Yellow

 

Engines authorised in one publication32XX (i.e 2251), 55XX, and 36XX. (i.e. 57XX/8750)

 

Engines authorised in another (contemporaneous) publication - 32XX. 55XX, and 73XX (i.e. 43XX)

 

Width restriction of 8ft 4 inches maximum applied to all footsteps between rail level and 1ft 9ins above rail level.

 

At that date the restrictions for Norton Fitzwarren - Barnstaple Jcn were as follows -

 

Route restriction - Yellow

 

engines authorised - All Uncoloured and Yellow engines', 73XX, M7 (limited to 25 mph and not to be assisted by any other engine)  N, and West Country (except rebuilt engines) - permitted an an emergencybetween Morebath Jcn and Barnstaple Jcn at a maximum speed of 20 mph and all lower rertrictions ot be rigorously observed especially 15 mph over castle Hill Viaduct, West Country class not to be coupled to any other engine.

 

 

That's fascinating Mike but how come, if the North Devon is indeed a yellow route, they permitted Blue engines like the 43xx and Bulldogs to use it? There are plenty of photos going back to the 1930s at least. I'm curious to know just how flexible they were about these things.

[jim.snowdon]

That's fascinating Mike but how come, if the North Devon is indeed a yellow route, they permitted Blue engines like the 43xx and Bulldogs to use it? There are plenty of photos going back to the 1930s at least. I'm curious to know just how flexible they were about these things.

The route availability of a route can decrease over time as bridges, particularly iron or steel ones, deteriorate through corrosion. When, or if, they get replaced depends on the business priorities assigned to that route.

 

Jim

[dpgibbons]

The unrebuilt West Country class was a mainstay of the line though to the end of steam, and I believe that had a higher axle loading than the 43xx or Bulldog. 

[7007GreatWestern]

 if the North Devon is indeed a yellow route, they permitted Blue engines like the 43xx and Bulldogs to use it? 

 

I realise this question wasn't directed at me, but I hope all concerned won't mind if I attempt to answer it anyway.

 

There is that famous saying that 'rules are meant to be broken' and that is certainly true of the GWR Route Classification system. At first glance it appears simple enough. The GWR assigned colours to all its routes indicating the maximum axle load the Civil Engineering Dept were prepared to sanction for that particular route. The locomotives had a painted circular disc indicating the suitability of that loco for the route in question. What could be more straight forward?

 

Unfortunately the GWR system was riddled with exceptions to these rules. Earlier on in this thread I mentioned "GWR Service Timetable Appendices 1945". On the face of it, a very dull sounding book! It includes a vast amount of operational information that would have been critical to loco crews going about their duties. For example the positions and opening times of every Signal Box, the maximum speeds at every section, junction, turnout and crossover. Of relevance to this discussion however, it also describes the many exceptions to the aforementioned Route Classification system. Here are a few examples:-

 

The (now preserved) Norton Fitzwarren - Minehead line. "Authorised engines: Blue Engines except 28xx & 78xx & all yellow types".......yet 28xx and 78xx are both Blues engines!

 

Yelverton to Launceston. "Authorised engines: Uncoloured, Yellow 2-6-2T, 45xx specially authorised. Prohibitions: 2251 Class"......2251 is a yellow engine but is not authorised!

 

Brent to Kingsbridge. "Authorised Engines: Uncoloured, Yellows. Prohibitions 20xx-21xx"......yet the 20xx-21xx (2021 0-6-0PT) was uncoloured!

 

My point is that those attractive coloured discs on the side of GWRs locos were a helpful guide but no more than that. Railwaymen were expected to commit a very large amount of information to memory, far more than we probably give them credit for today. They could be and frequently were tested on their knowledge and they sourced much of their information from dull books full of bewildering detail such as "GWR Service Timetable Appendices 1945".

 

I hope the above is of interest.

 

[PatB]

I presume those engines prohibited in spite of their compatible RA classification were unsuitable for reasons other than axle loads, eg. dimensional/clearance problems? 

[Siberian Snooper]

I think that the restriction on the Yelverton to Launceston was the bore of Yelverton Tunnel, it's known that Castles have worked as far as Yelverton.

[Dunsignalling]

The unrebuilt West Country class was a mainstay of the line though to the end of steam, and I believe that had a higher axle loading than the 43xx or Bulldog. 

But the heavier rebuilts were never permitted, which suggests that the axle-loading of the non-rebuilts was pretty much at the limit of what the civil engineer would tolerate.

 

Route restrictions depended on other factors besides simple axle-loading. For example a two cylinder loco might be unacceptable where a somewhat larger three-cylinder one might be OK due to the reduced hammer-blow effect. 

 

IIRC Hymeks were used on the Ilfracombe line and their uneven weight distribution meant that axle loading on the "heavy end" probably exceeded that of the Bulleid Pacifics (in either form) but the absence of hammer blow would have favoured the diesel. 

 

John

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

That's fascinating Mike but how come, if the North Devon is indeed a yellow route, they permitted Blue engines like the 43xx and Bulldogs to use it? There are plenty of photos going back to the 1930s at least. I'm curious to know just how flexible they were about these things.

 

Very simple really - two ways it could (officially) happen -

 

1. Specific classes of engine (e.g 43XX to Ilfracombe could be permitted and sometimes this would be with restrictions for either axle loading or clearance reasons.

 

2. In addition to the colours the GWR also used 'Dotted Colours' which normally allowed the next heaviest axle loading category, or certain classes of engine in that category, tio use a route of the lower category but inevitably subject to various restrictions.

 

There were of course also occasional instances where routes were incorrectly classified although the most likely situation was that revisions were made and only one spot might impose the overall classification.  We shouldn't overlook the fact that heavier Southern engines worked to Ifracombe as, in later years, did D8XX locos which were 'Red' restriction.  I suspect that Barnstaple - Ilfracombe as listed up until the closure of the Taunton - Barnstaple route was limited to Yellow by virtue of the fact that the only way a Western loco could (normally) reach it was over the Yellow route to Barnstaple.  Obviously the section could carry heavier locos but they had of course got there direct from Exeter over the SR route.

 

In reality a lot of it was probably a little bit on the theoretical side and I'd place good money on engines going over routes which weren't officially cleared for them.  That definitely happened in diesel days and in one case on one of the branches on my patch the only way we found out that Class 45/46 weren't permitted was after we'd had some wagons derailed (not the loco) and some jobsworth noted the loco number and checked the Route Availability booklet to find the class wasn't cleared.  As we'd been running them up there for several years, without incident, it was clearly a load of jobsworth nonsense on his part and by the following week the RA booklet had been duly amended to permit Class 45/46 without restriction after I'd had a quiet chat with the chap who published it (and who was more than happy to do so in order to shut up the jobsworth man).

 

Perhaps I should add a note about engines of the 'correct' RA colour being prohibited from a route of the same colour?  This wasn't particularly unusual and as PatB correctly identified the reasons were usually to do with clearances or wheelbase rather than anything else although sometimes weight on a specific axle might have played a part.  A good example is the 47XX 2-8-0 which was RA Red but was barred from numerous sections of Red route and was subject to a long list of individual restrictions barring it from yards and sidings etc on those routes where it was permitted - far more so than, say, even 'Castles'

Edited May 14, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Chris Higgs]

Did the transfer of the SR lines weat of Exeter to WR control have an effect on which locos could get to Barnstaple and by which routes. The Warships, Hymeks and so on were eventaully running from Exeter although I suppose they had none of the step width restriction problems that GWR steam locomotives were subject to.

 

Chris

[7007GreatWestern]

An interesting story concerning the confusion surrounding the GWRs weight restrictions can be found in J.E. Chacksfield's "CB Collett - A Competent Successor". Collett had been pressurised by the Directors to produce a more powerful machine than the 'Castle' Class, a locomotive which was right 'on the limit' of the GWR mainline axle limit of 19 tons. Collet cited the limitations in the permanent way as an obstacle to progress: "If I could have an axle loading of 22.5 tons, I would give you a very fine locomotive" he is reported to have said. Two GWR Directors, Felix Pole and Sir Audrey Brocklebank conducted some enquiries of their own to understand the situation. At a meeting in 1926 Sir Audrey suggested it would be helpful to draw up a list of the weight restrictions on all the relevant bridges along the GWR mainline. They summoned one Mr. Lloyd, the GWR Chief Civil Engineer and he readily agreed to their request to draw up such a list. As Lloyd left the room, Felix Pole asked of him "By the way Mr. Lloyd, when designing new bridges, for what axle load do you provide?" They would doubtless have been flabbergasted by his response: "22 Tons". It transpired that the GWR Civil Engineers (under Sir James Inglis) had been upgrading the bridges to 22 tons for over twenty years and had not informed either Churchward, Collett or even senior Directors!!!!

 

At a stroke, the most compelling arguments against developing what would become the 'Kings' fell away. Further enquiries by Pole found that the 22 ton bridges had sufficient redundancy to be uprated to 22.5 tons, thereby satisfying Collett's requirements. It further transpired that just four bridges on the entire West of England mainline had to be replaced to enable the entire route to be reclassified as 22.5 ton axle load!

 

The moral of this story is that weight restrictions would inevitably become a bone of contention between the Civil Engineers who would have a vested interest in preventing unnecessary and costly damage to the infrastructure and the Traffic Department who would want to make full use of the network without hindrance. The situation becomes even more confused when senior professionals either deliberately or by oversight simple fail to communicate critical information to one another - even in an organisation as long standing as the GWR.

Edited May 14, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[7007GreatWestern]

 

2. In addition to the colours the GWR also used 'Dotted Colours' which normally allowed the next heaviest axle loading category, or certain classes of engine in that category, tio use a route of the lower category but inevitably subject to various restrictions.

 

 

 For anyone wanting further information about "dotted route classifications" as mentioned by Mike, the appropriate Wikipedia page offers a rudimentary explanation:-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

Edited May 14, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[Dunsignalling]

Did the transfer of the SR lines weat of Exeter to WR control have an effect on which locos could get to Barnstaple and by which routes. The Warships, Hymeks and so on were eventaully running from Exeter although I suppose they had none of the step width restriction problems that GWR steam locomotives were subject to.

 

Chris

That didn't take place until 1st January 1963, by which time WR steam in the West Country was already well on its way out, so I doubt there would have been many (if any) workings of ex-GWR steam locos through from Exeter. In any case, Exeter's last remaining pair of WR moguls (the class mainly affected) had been withdrawn the previous September.

 

 The very prominent front steps on SR N Class moguls didn't cause them to be restricted and GWR tender types only had cab steps anyway. However, as standard, they were very chunky ones and mounted on a loco  that was wider to begin with.

 

WR hydraulics were consciously designed to be narrower anyway, to avoid them being restricted from working off the region. Additionally, steps on diesels were generally fixed to the bogies, in line (or nearly so) with the pivot point, so throw-over on curves wasn't an issue.

 

John

Edited May 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling