The Nutley, Crowborough and Groombridge Light Railway - Fictional Narrow Gauge in East Sussex

[Metropolitan H]

Yep, I think the overall outline of that begins to look plausible.

 

Hope you feel better after a kip.

 

If you study the picture of the U below, you will see that, because it has inside frames for the driven axles, there're is what amounts to a big box structure at the rear, which allows a nice wide firebox, and is strong enough to carry the tractive forces to the rear drawbar. This is the alternative to outside frames, but must surely be more expensive to build. It's a very typically continental design and I'm not sure I can recall a British loco built like this ....... examples will now be posted in their hundreds!

 

The loco below shows the same general idea, taken to rather mad extreme, with a driven axle under the firebox ....., I think only one of these was built, and it didn't last anything like so long as the U class and its close relations.

But all six of the similar Mh class "Engerth" 0-8-4 tender-tank locos built for the Mariazeller bahn are still extant and most are still in working order on various Austrian 760mm gauge lines.

 

 

The front end of the tender is pivoted under the boiler ahead of the firebox transferring adhesive weight to the rear drivers and getting the locos round the corners - superb machines.

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited July 23, 2018 by Metropolitan H

[Annie]

Yay for Engerth locomotives!  I have some 19th century ones that really are superb locomotives.

 

[Nearholmer]

I can’t quite work out the temporal relationship between the 0-8-4T that I illustrated and the Engerth. I think it pre-dated the Engerth, and is possibly what led to them, but it might have been an attempt to rival them. The Engerth, more sensibly, have all the driven axles ahead of the firebox.

[Northroader]

Here’s a drawing for the first Engerth, if I’ve got it right, (my German is even worse than my French) built for working the Semmering incline on the Austrian Sudbahn in 1853. (There had been a sort of Rainhill trial a couple of years earlier with some weird and wonderful locos to try and tackle this) you’ll see that the back end of the loco is articulated to the main part, with the firebox resting on bearer pads. What I don’t figure is why the wheels for this are coupled drivers, as there’s no linkage or steam tender type of arrangement. Perhaps Herr Engerth was hoping for a big rubber band?

The 0-8-4 you’ve found, Kevin, is a later test loco, built for the Austrian state railway to try on the Arlberg incline in 1884. Only the one was built, generally they used lumpy big tender engines. You’ll see in this case the rear body is rigid with the rest, and rests on some form of bogie with a radial linkage and weight transferred by swing links, so it’s not a proper Engerth.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Here’s a drawing for the first Engerth, if I’ve got it right, (my German is even worse than my French) built for working the Semmering incline on the Austrian Sudbahn in 1853. (There had been a sort of Rainhill trial a couple of years earlier with some weird and wonderful locos to try and tackle this) you’ll see that the back end of the loco is articulated to the main part, with the firebox resting on bearer pads. What I don’t figure is why the wheels for this are coupled drivers, as there’s no linkage or steam tender type of arrangement. Perhaps Herr Engerth was hoping for a big rubber band?

22FD8753-9E39-402F-ACB2-DBC4FDCFD95D.jpeg

The 0-8-4 you’ve found, Kevin, is a later test loco, built for the Austrian state railway to try on the Arlberg incline in 1884. Only the one was built, generally they used lumpy big tender engines. You’ll see in this case the rear body is rigid with the rest, and rests on some form of bogie with a radial linkage and weight transferred by swing links, so it’s not a proper Engerth.

751CE183-013C-4158-B144-AD52FCBF97F2.jpeg

 

Top one is a bit of a beast, isn't it? Also I'd love to learn more about these trials. Love that sort of thing.

So basically are Engerths just tender locos with the tender connected to the main body of the loco like an oversized bunker?

[Nearholmer]

To repeat Chris's words:

 

"The front end of the tender is pivoted under the boiler ahead of the firebox transferring adhesive weight to the rear drivers and getting the locos round the corners - superb machines."

 

An ordinary tender doesn't transfer weight to the drivers, and an ordinary bunker doesn't flex to get round corners. The strange 0-8-4T that I posted has, from what I can work out, a conventional bunker, so it's tail-swing must have been prodigious on curves ...... I think the route it was designed for is fairly straight, though, a bit like a giant version of the Talyllyn IIRC.

[Nearholmer]

Northroader

 

Trying to understand the German description, I think the first three locos had gear-drive between main and tender axles, which proved a disaster because of the problems of meshing, then they tried chains, then belts (so nearly elastic bands), then they gave up. The idea was to make full use of the weight of the loco for adhesion, of course.

 

Kevin

Edited July 24, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Metropolitan H]

There are some complicated rod arrangements that allow for varying axle centres from hinged frames, but they were not common.

 

I found a fascinating paper "Narrow Gauge Steam Locomotives and their Builders in Hungary" by Sándor Malatinszky - ISSN 1333-1124 / eISSN 1849-1391 which shows the arrangement in figures 5 and 12 - but I need to read in detail.

 

I don't seem to be able to capture and post a link here - but I will get a copy to Nearholmer separately.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Killian keane]

Here’s a drawing for the first Engerth, if I’ve got it right, (my German is even worse than my French) built for working the Semmering incline on the Austrian Sudbahn in 1853. (There had been a sort of Rainhill trial a couple of years earlier with some weird and wonderful locos to try and tackle this) you’ll see that the back end of the loco is articulated to the main part, with the firebox resting on bearer pads. What I don’t figure is why the wheels for this are coupled drivers, as there’s no linkage or steam tender type of arrangement. Perhaps Herr Engerth was hoping for a big rubber band?

22FD8753-9E39-402F-ACB2-DBC4FDCFD95D.jpeg

The 0-8-4 you’ve found, Kevin, is a later test loco, built for the Austrian state railway to try on the Arlberg incline in 1884. Only the one was built, generally they used lumpy big tender engines. You’ll see in this case the rear body is rigid with the rest, and rests on some form of bogie with a radial linkage and weight transferred by swing links, so it’s not a proper Engerth.

751CE183-013C-4158-B144-AD52FCBF97F2.jpeg

The trials had four engines, all highly unusual, of particular note is Seraing, like a double fairlie with a tender, she even had separate fireboxes whoch would take fairlie nearly 20 years to rediscover Edited July 24, 2018 by Killian keane

[RedGemAlchemist]

The trials had four engines, all highly unusual, of particular note is Seraing, like a double fairlie with a tender, she even had separate fireboxes whoch would take fairlie nearly 20 years to rediscover sem.jpgwie.jpgsera.jpgvin.jpgbav.jpg

 

Wow, those are some real oddballs aren't they?

[Northroader]

Just one more Austrian, more suitable for a ng line, this one I think was designed for WW1 feldbahnen, a micro-mallet, but a bit too complicated for any rough usage.

A while back I mentioned a French forest line, here’s an old picture of it, giving a nice atmosphere:

[Nearholmer]

This thread keeps coming round to Micro-mallets, so perhaps we need to think of a faintly plausible back-story to get one to Sussex c1910 ....... which isn't going to be easy!

[RedGemAlchemist]

This thread keeps coming round to Micro-mallets, so perhaps we need to think of a faintly plausible back-story to get one to Sussex c1910 ....... which isn't going to be easy!

If the KESR can get away with having a locomotive from Norway surely we can get away with that

[BlueLightning]

This thread keeps coming round to Micro-mallets, so perhaps we need to think of a faintly plausible back-story to get one to Sussex c1910 ....... which isn't going to be easy!

 

I think we should!!!

 

Gary

 

PS. Sorry for being quiet everyone, being ill followed by a very busy day yesterday, however I do have something to show you later once I have sorted the images. A project completed before the Pugbash was revisited!

[BlueLightning]

Good afternoon friends,

 

As promised we have another project that I carried out last week before seeking your help and advice on the Pugbash

 

NC&GLR Number 1 Nutley

 

In 1899 shortly after joining the NC&GLR promoters, Sir Jon Melbourne headed off to London to meet with some of his MP friends to try and ensure Parliament would be on their side. While there he spoke to some members of the House of Lords with the intention of raising some additional capital for the line. It was during one of these conversations that his friend Lord Belborough said:

 

"Narrow Gauge? I have an old narrow gauge locomotive on my estate that doesn't get used any more. You can have it cheap for your venture if you want?"

 

and with that money changed hand and the NC&GLR had it's first locomotive.

 

Construction

 

It started last Wednesday with the arrival of a parcel from Shapeways, and then the literal defacement of a locomotive:

 

The engine was so shocked by this that it's cab and rear wheel set fell off!!!!!!

 

The footplate was then cut away to appropriately represent the look of the loco as built:

 

The Shapeways delivery then came back out so the cab could receive some detail:

 

After which the body was removed and moulded on details were filed down:

 

Once that was done, the body was covered in paint stripper, cleaned up, and new details fitted (no points for spotting the deliberate mistake for as built condition):

 

 

And with the model now in a more completed form it was sized up next to the other NC&GLR locomotive:

 

However it was feeling rather naked so the paint brushes had to come out (and the mistake corrected, still no points for spotting it!)

 

And once we had got this far it seemed right for the current NC&GLR fleet to pose for a "family photo"

 

So there we have NC&GLR Number 1 "Nutley" I really must get some lining transfers, and name / number plates made up!

 

Thanks for looking, hope you enjoyed,

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

That is very good!

 

If I could still see 009 locos, which I now regard as near-invisible flecks of dust, I would be itching to have a go at copying that.

[BlueLightning]

Thanks Kevin,

 

I know what you mean about size, I have the same issue with 2mm stuff. My eyesight should hold out for me to be able to enjoy 009 though!! I really don't have the space to move up to 7mm!!

 

Gary

[Northroader]

You could do it in On16.5, putting some nice cheap OO chassis to proper use, which does bring stuff to a more visible size? I was just looking at it and thinking if a big flat cab roof were fitted, it would be a nice tea plantation job, particularly in that blue.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve ‘done’ 009 and 0n14/0-16.5, and the only size I can now enjoy building small industrial locos in is 16mm/ft or above! Give it another ten years and full-size will probably be too small.

[Corbs]

Looks ace!

[ianmaccormac]

"This thread keeps coming round to Micro-mallets, so perhaps we need to think of a faintly plausible back-story to get one to Sussex c1910 ....... which isn't going to be easy! "

 

Wasn't there a Mexican loco trialled on the LB&SCR? Was that a Mallet or a Fairlie??

Cheers

Ian

[RedGemAlchemist]

Good afternoon friends,

 

As promised we have another project that I carried out last week before seeking your help and advice on the Pugbash

 

NC&GLR Number 1 Nutley

 

In 1899 shortly after joining the NC&GLR promoters, Sir Jon Melbourne headed off to London to meet with some of his MP friends to try and ensure Parliament would be on their side. While there he spoke to some members of the House of Lords with the intention of raising some additional capital for the line. It was during one of these conversations that his friend Lord Belborough said:

 

"Narrow Gauge? I have an old narrow gauge locomotive on my estate that doesn't get used any more. You can have it cheap for your venture if you want?"

 

and with that money changed hand and the NC&GLR had it's first locomotive.

 

Construction

 

It started last Wednesday with the arrival of a parcel from Shapeways, and then the literal defacement of a locomotive:

2018-07-18 15.32.46.jpg

 

The engine was so shocked by this that it's cab and rear wheel set fell off!!!!!!

2018-07-18 19.51.47.jpg

 

The footplate was then cut away to appropriately represent the look of the loco as built:

2018-07-18 22.45.28.jpg

 

The Shapeways delivery then came back out so the cab could receive some detail:

2018-07-18 23.50.08.jpg

 

After which the body was removed and moulded on details were filed down:

2018-07-19 13.49.26.jpg

 

Once that was done, the body was covered in paint stripper, cleaned up, and new details fitted (no points for spotting the deliberate mistake for as built condition):

2018-07-19 16.02.14.jpg

 

2018-07-19 16.12.49.jpg

 

And with the model now in a more completed form it was sized up next to the other NC&GLR locomotive:

2018-07-19 16.20.19.jpg

 

However it was feeling rather naked so the paint brushes had to come out (and the mistake corrected, still no points for spotting it!)

2018-07-20 18.33.05.jpg

 

And once we had got this far it seemed right for the current NC&GLR fleet to pose for a "family photo"

2018-07-21 09.47.38.jpg

 

So there we have NC&GLR Number 1 "Nutley" I really must get some lining transfers, and name / number plates made up!

 

Thanks for looking, hope you enjoyed,

 

Gary

 

Very smart little Skarloey-bash, Gary. A fantastic start to your narrow gauge fleet!

[BlueLightning]

Thanks everyone, if you can you should give this a go, it was a much easier job than I expected!!

 

 

You could do it in On16.5, putting some nice cheap OO chassis to proper use, which does bring stuff to a more visible size? I was just looking at it and thinking if a big flat cab roof were fitted, it would be a nice tea plantation job, particularly in that blue.

 

but all the nice cheap 00 chassis get used for my LB&SCR stock for Oak Hill / Hailsham!! but yes I could picture Nutley with a big flat roof on a tea plantation!

 

I’ve ‘done’ 009 and 0n14/0-16.5, and the only size I can now enjoy building small industrial locos in is 16mm/ft or above! Give it another ten years and full-size will probably be too small.

 

I do want to try my hand at something much bigger (live steam 7 1/4"). However that will have to wait a whole until I can afford such extravagance!!

 

Gary

[Ruffnut Thorston]

>SNIPPED

 

NC&GLR Number 1 Nutley

 

In 1899 shortly after joining the NC&GLR promoters, Sir Jon Melbourne headed off to London to meet with some of his MP friends to try and ensure Parliament would be on their side. While there he spoke to some members of the House of Lords with the intention of raising some additional capital for the line. It was during one of these conversations that his friend Lord Belborough said:

 

"Narrow Gauge? I have an old narrow gauge locomotive on my estate that doesn't get used any more. You can have it cheap for your venture if you want?"

 

and with that money changed hand and the NC&GLR had it's first locomotive.

 

>SNIPPED

 

Once that was done, the body was covered in paint stripper, cleaned up, and new details fitted (no points for spotting the deliberate mistake for as built condition):

2018-07-19 16.02.14.jpg

 

2018-07-19 16.12.49.jpg

 

And with the model now in a more completed form it was sized up next to the other NC&GLR locomotive:

2018-07-19 16.20.19.jpg

 

However it was feeling rather naked so the paint brushes had to come out (and the mistake corrected, still no points for spotting it!)

2018-07-20 18.33.05.jpg

 

>SNIPPED

 

Gary

 

I think I may have a 'handle' on that 'deliberate mistake'

 

So, Lord Belborough of Chigley Hall found a buyer for one of his locos then!

 

"Time flys by when I'm the driver of a train..."

 

I do like that shade of Blue....nice looking loco...

Edited July 25, 2018 by Sarahagain

[ChrisN]

Gary,

I like it.  Also it is smaller, or appears smaller than 'Prince' which is good as railways tend to buy bigger as time goes on rather than smaller.

Edited July 25, 2018 by ChrisN