New Wales and Borders Franchise

[Coryton]

Link to Keolis presentation not working for me.

 

Me neither now. I should have downloaded it...

 

 

RE lengths, the full unit lengths are quoted as;

 

Citylink - 40m

Flirt (3-Car) - 65m

Flirt (4-Car) - 80m

 

OK so a 3 coach "citylink" isn't far off 2 cars of a FLIRT.

 

The FLIRT lengths presumably include the power module thingy which isn't that much use for passenger accommodation, though.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The "thingy" is not only zero accommodation but rather narrow to pass through. I wonder if only staff will be allowed to pass through it. But that gives problems re access to WC.

[Coryton]

The "thingy" is not only zero accommodation but rather narrow to pass through. I wonder if only staff will be allowed to pass through it. But that gives problems re access to WC.

 

Yes I'm curious about that.

 

The only Stadler trains in that format I've been on have been metre gauge electric and continental standard gauge diesel. Both allowed ample room to get through the engine section, but I'm not sure what UK loading gauge and diesel leaves you with.

 

I'd be surprised if there is no way through at all, but as you say maybe for staff only or emergencies. We will see.

[31A]

The Stadler multiple units being built for Anglia will have a similar power module in the centre.  The diagrams in the June "Modern Railways" indicate that through passage is possible (the lavatory is only in one half of the unit) and one of the pictures showing the units under construction shows the "passage", but I agree it will be interesting to see how it works out within the British loading gauge!

[Coryton]

'Y Gerallt Gymro' ie 'Gerald of Wales' - does anyone know the date of its last run?

 

Mark

 

Last run?

 

I believe it's going over to three times a day each way with Mk 4's replacing the Mk 3's.

[Covkid]

Interesting mix of plans for the new franchise.

Entire(ish) fleet replacement by 2023

142 and 143, 150, 158, 175 all replaced

230s on the Wrexham-Bidston line

Mk4s replacing Mk3s although no mention of what goes on either end. Keep existing Mk3 DVTs or Mk4 DVTs, 67s or 68s maybe ?

 

As with Northern currently, TPE very soon and Anglia next year there will be masses of training required plus bedding in of new trains and ironing out teething troubles

[Coryton]

As with Northern currently, TPE very soon and Anglia next year there will be masses of training required plus bedding in of new trains and ironing out teething troubles

 

The good news for Wales is that Anglia get to be the guinea pigs for UK Stadler FLIRTs... 

[wombatofludham]

I hadn't picked up that the 175s are going.  That's a bit of a surprise as I had thought that they had settled down to become pretty reliable and would have been useful as capacity fillers.  There again, not being through-gangwayed probably reduces their usefulness on some routes with unstaffed stations, it would have been difficult to use them in multiple on the Cambrian for example.

It does look like the current shortage of DMUs might be about to be turned into a glut of still quite serviceable units in the near future.

[Edwin_m]

Reported elsewhere, the new build fleet will be as follows;

 

DMU CAF Civity (2-Car) x 51    

DMU CAF Civity (3-Car) x 26   (would hazard a guess these are really DEMUs)

 

BMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 11

TMU Stadler Flirt (3-Car) x 7

TMU Stadler Flirt (4-Car) x 17

 

Tram/Tram-Train Stadler Citylink (3-Car) x 36

 

BMU = Bi-Mode Multiple Unit

TMU = Tri-Mode Multiple Unit

 

Edit to add, whilst not new build they will also be getting 5 x Class 230 'Dentists'

The CAF Civity is a diesel unit with mechanical transmission by multi-speed gearbox, similar to the Bombardier Class 172.  The FLIRTs have electric transmission hence more suited to bi- or tri-mode options. 

 

The tram-train will have relatively short articulated sections to allow running round tight curves in the street, explaining the 3 cars (probably better referred to as sections) in 40m.  A Karlsruh tram-train is 3 sections in 38m if I recall correctly. 

 

When I read "CAF Civity" quickly I tend to see "Cavity" - maybe those should be the Dentists instead...

[wombatofludham]

It's just dawned on me why the Class 230 has been dubbed the "Dentist" although having grown up when casual racism was the norm we always referred to the "Chinese Dentist" whenever we had an appointment at 2.30...

[The Johnster]

So we are going back to mechanically geared multiple units.  I knew there'd be a catch!

[Edwin_m]

So we are going back to mechanically geared multiple units.  I knew there'd be a catch!

More efficient than the Sprinter-type transmissions which lose most of the energy at low speed heating up the hydraulic oil.  Significantly better fuel consumption, although apparently not enough to justify retrofitting the Sprinters (a couple of prototypes done, there may be more interest the way the oil price is going).  Any resemblence to the first-generation transmissions is purely coincidental. 

[DavidB-AU]

Vivarail D-Trains for Wales & Borders

Incoming Wales & Borders franchisee KeolisAmey is to take delivery of five three-car Class 230 D-Train diesel-battery multiple-units from Vivarail, which is to produce them using the bogies and aluminium bodyshells of withdrawn London Underground D78 metro trains.

Intended for use on the Wrexham – Bidston, Conwy Valley and Chester – Crewe routes, the units are scheduled to be delivered in early 2019 for testing ahead of entry into service from mid-2019.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

[nightstar.train]

Mk4s replacing Mk3s although no mention of what goes on either end. Keep existing Mk3 DVTs or Mk4 DVTs, 67s or 68s maybe ?

 

I would expect them to use the Mk4 DVTs. Mk4s do not have standard couplers between coaches, only on the end coach and DVT, so are kept as fixed rakes. A Mk3 DVT would require modification to work, which would need them taken out of traffic. The Mk4s will need fitting with AAR controls to work with either the 67s or 68s. I hope they keep 67s as that class is rather lacking in work, and I already have some to repaint for a model.

['CHARD]

I would expect them to use the Mk4 DVTs. Mk4s do not have standard couplers between coaches, only on the end coach and DVT, so are kept as fixed rakes. A Mk3 DVT would require modification to work, which would need them taken out of traffic. The Mk4s will need fitting with AAR controls to work with either the 67s or 68s. I hope they keep 67s as that class is rather lacking in work, and I already have some to repaint for a model.

 

At present, Class 67s are the quoted traction.

[Covkid]

I would expect them to use the Mk4 DVTs. Mk4s do not have standard couplers between coaches, only on the end coach and DVT, so are kept as fixed rakes. A Mk3 DVT would require modification to work, which would need them taken out of traffic. The Mk4s will need fitting with AAR controls to work with either the 67s or 68s. I hope they keep 67s as that class is rather lacking in work, and I already have some to repaint for a model.

 

What needs to be done to a Mk3b DVT to work with Mk4s ? I would think converting the Mk3 DVT to work with Mk4 trailers would be easier than trying to fit the AAR control stand into a Mk4 DVT desk, but I am not an engineer !!! Also drivers would not need any training if the existing Mk3 DVTs were retained. but it also depends on whether "T" are able to lease / buy them from whichever DB subsidiary owns them.

i still think it is a pity that a couple of class 442 cab cars couldn't be procured and converted to DBSOs to eliminate wasted van space, but two years on from withdrawal and they all appear to have a future.    

Edited June 8, 2018 by Covkid

[frobisher]

What needs to be done to a Mk3b DVT to work with Mk4s ? I would think converting the Mk3 DVT to work with Mk4 trailers would be easier than trying to fit the AAR control stand into a Mk4 DVT desk, but I am not an engineer !!! Also drivers would not need any training if the existing Mk3 DVTs were retained. but it also depends on whether "T" are able to lease / buy them from whichever DB subsidiary owns them.

Given the MK3 and MK4 DVTs where built around the same time with the same MU control system, I'd suggest that the control system changes are probably a known quantity, and that the control desks are probably very similar anyway. As I understand it the coupling height within the rake of MK4s differs from the MK3 (beyond it being a Tightlock rather than the standard Buckeye). In any case, the MK4s will need the AAR control cabling run along (the TDM on the 67's isn't fully push-pull capable I believe?). Keeping the (shortened) MK4 rakes together makes much more sense.

 

i still think it is a pity that a couple of class 442 cab cars couldn't be procured and converted to DBSOs to eliminate wasted van space, but two years on from withdrawal and they all appear to have a future.

That would be a sledgehammer to break a nut to say the least. It would probably be much easier to convert the luggage space of the Mk3 or MK4 DVTs to passenger accommodation.

[wombatofludham]

Vivarail D-Trains for Wales & Borders

 

Incoming Wales & Borders franchisee KeolisAmey is to take delivery of five three-car Class 230 D-Train diesel-battery multiple-units from Vivarail, which is to produce them using the bogies and aluminium bodyshells of withdrawn London Underground D78 metro trains.

 

Intended for use on the Wrexham – Bidston, Conwy Valley and Chester – Crewe routes, the units are scheduled to be delivered in early 2019 for testing ahead of entry into service from mid-2019.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

 

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

 

​Vivarail's press fluff on the new order.  Can't help thinking there's a bit of press spin talking about "new" which won't fool the North Wales Daily Post but the drawings seem to show the retention of the existing door layout which is interesting, and suggests no more seating than the existing 150 and 153 units used on these services.  That said they do look to be being planned with a nice interior, airy, spacious and with 2+2 seating lined up with the windows they should be a nice unit on the Conwy Valley route which is quite scenic in places.

 

​It's a shame they can't order a few extra to run connecting terminators on the Pwllheli-Machynlleth section to connect with the proposed hourly all day service to Aberystwyth, a service of alternating two hourly directs to Birmingham calling at principal stations and a two-hourly connecting stopper by a class 230 into the Aber-Shrewsbury service would be wonderful.

[DIRTY DIESEL]

Vivarail D-Trains for Wales & Borders

Incoming Wales & Borders franchisee KeolisAmey is to take delivery of five three-car Class 230 D-Train diesel-battery multiple-units from Vivarail, which is to produce them using the bogies and aluminium bodyshells of withdrawn London Underground D78 metro trains.

Intended for use on the Wrexham – Bidston, Conwy Valley and Chester – Crewe routes, the units are scheduled to be delivered in early 2019 for testing ahead of entry into service from mid-2019.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

Do we know if these units will get up the hill to BF? Plus the diagram for the branch stock leaves Chester on 5D02 at 0345 and is in continuous use until it goes back to Crewe on IK21 2145 Llandudno to Crewe, presumably it has the fuel & battery life for a 21 hour day?

 

Those seats don’t look very comfortably in that photo....

[The Stationmaster]

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

 

​Vivarail's press fluff on the new order.  Can't help thinking there's a bit of press spin talking about "new" which won't fool the North Wales Daily Post but the drawings seem to show the retention of the existing door layout which is interesting, and suggests no more seating than the existing 150 and 153 units used on these services.  That said they do look to be being planned with a nice interior, airy, spacious and with 2+2 seating lined up with the windows they should be a nice unit on the Conwy Valley route which is quite scenic in places.

 

​It's a shame they can't order a few extra to run connecting terminators on the Pwllheli-Machynlleth section to connect with the proposed hourly all day service to Aberystwyth, a service of alternating two hourly directs to Birmingham calling at principal stations and a two-hourly connecting stopper by a class 230 into the Aber-Shrewsbury service would be wonderful.

 

If they're the 'flagship fleet' for Wales and Borders I hate to think how bad the lower orders of the fleet will be

[jjb1970]

Surely there's some mistake, we all know that it is impossible to build a diesel train that can comply with the latest emissions regulations!

[wombatofludham]

If they're the 'flagship fleet' for Wales and Borders I hate to think how bad the lower orders of the fleet will be

 

That bit did make me chuckle.  I think Adrian Shooter's press officer forgot the rest of the sentence "in Blaenau Ffestiniog and Wrexham".  I'm not one to suggest either of those great Welsh centres are rougher than an undagged sheep's bum, but...

[Covkid]

Do we know if these units will get up the hill to BF? Plus the diagram for the branch stock leaves Chester on 5D02 at 0345 and is in continuous use until it goes back to Crewe on IK21 2145 Llandudno to Crewe, presumably it has the fuel & battery life for a 21 hour day?

 

Those seats don’t look very comfortably in that photo....

 

Not sure whether they will cope with the windy hilly route, and whether they will sit down and get stuck into the track twists without slipping to a stand and squealing badly.  I know an experienced footplateman whose steam engine was overpowered by the gradients and had to divide the train and run in two portions. Granted the 230 will have traction motors on the powered axles and no carrying wheels, but it is a nasty and unforgiving route.

 

I believe Vivarail's plan for the 230 is to service the units locally rather than run them ECS to and from depots every morning and night. I am therefore guessing whoever is responsible for servicing them will do it locally.  It might even involve a recast timetable and a set stabling at Blaenau overnight with service arranged there. Or even one stabled and serviced there overnight swapping with one down at Llandudno during the day. By the same token Vivarail or whoever might service one overnight at Wrexham provided there is a minimum piece of siding somewhere and access to a transit van of oil, spares, cleaning equipement and CET.

 

I know many latterday passenger operations run trains a very minimum of empty miles and outstable trains - a huge difference where a lot of UK trains have to go to a depot everynight for service and cleaning.        

[wombatofludham]

Not sure whether they will cope with the windy hilly route, and whether they will sit down and get stuck into the track twists without slipping to a stand and squealing badly.  I know an experienced footplateman whose steam engine was overpowered by the gradients and had to divide the train and run in two portions. Granted the 230 will have traction motors on the powered axles and no carrying wheels, but it is a nasty and unforgiving route.

 

I believe Vivarail's plan for the 230 is to service the units locally rather than run them ECS to and from depots every morning and night. I am therefore guessing whoever is responsible for servicing them will do it locally.  It might even involve a recast timetable and a set stabling at Blaenau overnight with service arranged there. Or even one stabled and serviced there overnight swapping with one down at Llandudno during the day. By the same token Vivarail or whoever might service one overnight at Wrexham provided there is a minimum piece of siding somewhere and access to a transit van of oil, spares, cleaning equipement and CET.

 

I know many latterday passenger operations run trains a very minimum of empty miles and outstable trains - a huge difference where a lot of UK trains have to go to a depot everynight for service and cleaning.        

 

It would probably make sense to set up a mini-"depot" at Llandudno Junction, which would be capable of serving the Chester route with perhaps limited ECS or even in service running, the Blaenau branch and a bit further afield, reach Bidston via Chester.  Or set up a base actually at Chester.  Both locations have siding space and road access and it would avoid the trains becoming target practice for the local scrotes in Wrexham and Blaenau.  Not that I'm suggesting both places are as rough as - well you get my drift.

[w124bob]

An interesting summary of the fleet.Wales-franchise-graph-LARGE.jpg

I assumed this was the new livery!