Antipodean Modellers and Looming tax changes

[Johnfromoz]

Decided to test the water with a small order from Hattons today.

 

Two things are apparent. Firstly, VAT was removed as per normal and there was no trace of any software adjustment in the checkout process suggesting a surcharge or adjustment for GST, as per Hattons previous announcements that this would commence from Sunday.

 

Secondly, the information page about GST changes appears to have been taken down, or at least moved to some other part of the site, although I couldn't find it if has..

 

With reference to the original purpose of this topic, I am interested to hear from other forum members who have made purchases from Hattons since 1 July. It would be interesting to find out if they have backed away from this, or there is simply some delay in implementation.

[monkeysarefun]

Has not the ATO said it will not require 0'seas sellers with gross sales of less than £75,000 or somesuch to gather Australian tax on their behalf.

 

Totally inequitable as well as setting dubious a precedent for international tax enforcement.  In my opinion.

 

This is intended to align with the situation for local traders here - who  also do not need to pay GST if their income is less than $75,000. However here traders whose income is over $75,000 do legally need to register for GST on pain of harsh  punishment whereas large overseas retailers can only be 'encouraged' to register  by the Australian Government...

[Johnfromoz]

Further to post 126, also worth noting that no secondary charge has been made or taken from my account relating to GST collection, so heres hoping they have abondoned this venture.

 

Time will tell.

[PatB]

Has not the ATO said it will not require 0'seas sellers with gross sales of less than £75,000 or somesuch to gather Australian tax on their behalf.

 

Totally inequitable as well as setting dubious a precedent for international tax enforcement. In my opinion.

I suspect that the amount is AU$75000. If so it's not inequitable because, below that threshold, Australian businesses are not required to collect tax on behalf of the Federal government either.

 

Edit:Beaten to it by monkeysarefun.

Edited July 4, 2018 by PatB

[robmcg]

It does seem overall to be a rather murky legal area, collecting taxes in other countries.... thus I presume larger retailers like Hattons will wait until they see what the ATO proposes.  Does the ATO have the right to inspect a UK retailer's books? And to require that GST be paid to the Australian Government if a certain threshold is met? If so at what exchange rate and who pays for the accounting work?

 

Hattons may also have taken legal advice which suggests this ATO regulation is a mess and will need clarification.  

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha ha ha hah HAH! Yes they ARE! From our ATO Government website:

 

GST is not payable at the border if the goods are imported in a consignment with a customs value of A$1,000 or less......Generally, this means that low value goods will still enter as non-taxable importations and their flow across the border will not be impacted.

 

This whole process was set up in a way  to have the most minimal cost and disruption to our govmint and its  processes, they just want the overseas suppliers to do the work for them. There are vague mentions of 'penalties' for companies who don't comply, but no mention of what they are or how they would go about enforcing them on overseas companies. 

 

We aren't governed by the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

So all that is required to keep the value of each package below that level and apply a sticker declaring so to the outside?

 

On that basis, even by 2020, you should still be able to get three Bachmann locos shipped together tax free. 

 

John

[monkeysarefun]

So all that is required to keep the value of each package below that level and apply a sticker declaring so to the outside?

 

On that basis, even by 2020, you should still be able to get three Bachmann locos shipped together tax free. 

 

John

 

 

My partner is a very heavy user of overseas websites for perfume, makeup, books and vitamins/health products. Of the sites she uses (all of which would definitely go over the $75,000 limit) One has emailed saying they will be adding the GST to purchases, two have emailed saying that they will be including the GST in the regular price (ie price won't go up but the price will be listed as' including GST') and two others have not added the GST on a test purchase she did yesterday, so all in all its a pretty hit and miss as to whether you get charged for it, I guess the hint is that if you find a seller that does include it, just shop around and you'll no doubt find someone who doesn't...

 

But at least the government can tick the box that says that they now charge GST on overseas purchases...

Edited July 4, 2018 by monkeysarefun

[45568]

Ebay UK is adding 10% GST to purchases made in UK sent to Australian addresses. This is a double whammy as, of course, you do not receive a VAT reduction on Ebay purchases! A definite reason to slow down purchases ex. UK, especially if people use the Global shiteing programme, which makes shipping ludicrously expensive.

Cheers from WA,

Peter C.

 

Edit: Just noticed they are charging GST on full price, including postage, surely this is a mistake?

[monkeysarefun]

Ebay UK is adding 10% GST to purchases made in UK sent to Australian addresses. This is a double whammy as, of course, you do not receive a VAT reduction on Ebay purchases! A definite reason to slow down purchases ex. UK, especially if people use the Global shiteing programme, which makes shipping ludicrously expensive.

Cheers from WA,

Peter C.

 

Edit: Just noticed they are charging GST on full price, including postage, surely this is a mistake?

 

Every time I have been forced to use the Global shipping programme, a tracking of the package always shows it as going via Ascension Island - even when I buy things from China!

 

The GST IS calculated on shipping as well as the items cost and also if you use a reshipping service due to supplier not shipping here, you get hit with the GST on the reshippers fee as well...

Edited July 5, 2018 by monkeysarefun

[jukebox]

Ebay UK is adding 10% GST to purchases made in UK sent to Australian addresses. This is a double whammy as, of course, you do not receive a VAT reduction on Ebay purchases! A definite reason to slow down purchases ex. UK, especially if people use the Global shiteing programme, which makes shipping ludicrously expensive.

Cheers from WA,

Peter C.

 

Edit: Just noticed they are charging GST on full price, including postage, surely this is a mistake?

 

 

Every time I have been forced to use the Global shipping programme, a tracking of the package always shows it as going via Ascension Island - even when I buy things from China!

 

The GST IS calculated on shipping as well as the items cost and also if you use a reshipping service due to supplier not shipping here, you get hit with the GST on the reshippers fee as well...

 

 

To be fair, I just imported four bags of Woodland Scenics lichen from the USA. Normally the shipping would kill this as a supply source, but I found a vendor using the Global shipping and it was free (!) to Australia.  Took about 14 days to arrive - saved $10/bag on Aussie retail.  Very happy with that.

 

 

 

And no GST in sight

[DougN]

It does seem overall to be a rather murky legal area, collecting taxes in other countries.... thus I presume larger retailers like Hattons will wait until they see what the ATO proposes.  Does the ATO have the right to inspect a UK retailer's books? And to require that GST be paid to the Australian Government if a certain threshold is met? If so at what exchange rate and who pays for the accounting work?

 

Hattons may also have taken legal advice which suggests this ATO regulation is a mess and will need clarification.  

Rob, The complex area of tax enforcement in other jurisdictions is for others to answer.  However I doubt that the ATO could walk into a business and demand a audit anywhere else in world other than Australia! I bet they would be shown the door and the police called for harrassment!

The ATO however expects the business to pay for all the compliance items IE all the accounting, system, recording and tracking.  Which I would guess is the same the world over! 

 

So the businesses yet again cop the compliance costs rather than running the business!

 

Doug

[N15class]

Every time I have been forced to use the Global shipping programme, a tracking of the package always shows it as going via Ascension Island - even when I buy things from China!

 

The GST IS calculated on shipping as well as the items cost and also if you use a reshipping service due to supplier not shipping here, you get hit with the GST on the reshippers fee as well...

I will not buy anything on eBay that use the global shipping program. They charge 4 times the postal rate and even add duty to none duty items. I think a lot of sellers do not realise they can tick a box to get rid of it and use the normal mail.

[45568]

There is another side and possible solution to this problem?? with UK Ebay. I have found that some sellers who run an Ebay shop alongside a UK business premises will, if contacted directly, sell the items to you, remove VAT and ship to Oz. (This tends to apply to new items only, although Hattons have removed VAT on pre-owned items). Always worth a try!

Examples are; Peter's spares, Kitlady, and AC models of Eastleigh.

Cheers from WA,

Peter C.

[dpgibbons]

The direct approach often pays off as in addition to deducting VAT the retailer may pass on some of his saving on eBay fees.

[jjb1970]

Unless there is an explicit treat arrangement then the Australian authorities can't do anything in overseas jurisdictions, and even if there is a treaty any physical investigation or demand to access documents and records would invariably be done by local agencies as countries don't generally allow foreign tax or law enforcement agencies freedom to act in their area. That would be a violation of sovereign rights. What they can do is apply putative pressure and threats but if a UK (or any non-Australian) business decides to they could just tell Australia that transactions are subject to their own national law and unless Australia can point to a violation of those laws then it's none of their business (which I'm guessing is a position the Australian government would support if another country decided to demand that businesses in Australia were made subject to a foreign legal jurisdiction) then I don't think the seller would be at risk.

 

However, I actually think that from a consumer perspective this is a good system. If I could avoid the £13 customs handling charge and the sometimes several weeks that parcels sit in customs clearance by paying tax to the overseas seller then I'd gladly do it as I find that the post office/parcels force customs process is dreadful. Companies like UPS are better in terms of time but you still pay a handling charge. Therefore I'm guessing most businesses that sell a lot to Australia will want to comply as it will be easier and after a while customers will want it rather than going through a parcel customs clearance process in Australia.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...However, I actually think that from a consumer perspective this is a good system. If I could avoid the £13 customs handling charge and the sometimes several weeks that parcels sit in customs clearance by paying tax to the overseas seller then I'd gladly do it ...

 I would suggest only if the GST charge is unavoidable surely? First you would look around to see if any retailer can offer GST exempt because they are below the 75K threshold, and either only order quantities that will total less than 1K including shipping, or arrange to split shipments into under 1K portions (not labelled 1 of N, 2 of N!). That won't attract any charge on landing in Oz.

 

Quite how the ATO intends to monitor compliance of many relatively small retailers, shipping into Oz through multiple airports to an unknown assortment of customers isn't explained. It would be simpler to require Oz based banks to surcharge all transactions payable outside Oz at 10%, That's auditable within Australia and of no concern to retailers outside Oz.

[N15class]

Here in Brazil we have a fairly new system that you register on the customs site. When you have a package that requires a payment. You just log in pay up and the parcel arrives like normal post no going to the post office the other side of town, finding out they don't take cards or cheques. Lovely system. Shame the post office let's it down by racking months to deliver anything.

Edited July 6, 2018 by N15class

[SRman]

Here in Brazil we have a fairly new system that you register on the customs site. When you have a package that requires a payment. You just log in pay up and the parcel arrives like normal post no going to the post office the other side of town, finding out they don't take cards or cheques. Lovely system. Shame the post office let's it down by racking months to deliver anything.

 

No, don't give the Aussie Tax Department or Customs any ideas, please! 

[Peter Beckett]

Last night ordered some items on my wish list at Hattons and it was GST free. I also ordered a specialist book from The Book Depository in UK which now attracts GST.   (THANK YOU AMAZON.)

 

Peter

[Andy Mac]

 

It would be simpler to require Oz based banks to surcharge all transactions payable outside Oz at 10%, That's auditable within Australia and of no concern to retailers outside Oz.

Emmmm, how does that work with my holiday in the USA next week?

 

It’s only 10%.... online orders are still far cheaper, even with the gst...

If I place an order with a retailer than doesn’t charge gst at source, and it gets through then that’s a bonus.... however i’d Expect a certain percentage to get held at customs till the fee/duty is paid...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Emmmm, how does that work with my holiday in the USA next week?...

 

 10% of what you spend goes to the ATO (to protect the Australian holiday industry).

[Johnfromoz]

 

Last night ordered some items on my wish list at Hattons and it was GST free. I also ordered a specialist book from The Book Depository in UK which now attracts GST. (THANK YOU AMAZON.)

 

Peter[/quote

 

Good to hear from other purchasers after the 1 July deadline. Interesting that they have backed away from it without any explanation on the website, where they have taken down the GST surcharge notice.

[davefromacrossthepond]

Well, it seems to me that if our President can make Mexico pay for a wall built by Americans on American soil as directed by the American President, then collecting 10 percent on purchases from Hattons should be easy right?  (Ducking now so I don't get hit by a flying object).    

[sandwich station]

Last night ordered some items on my wish list at Hattons and it was GST free. I also ordered a specialist book from The Book Depository in UK which now attracts GST.   (THANK YOU AMAZON.)

 

Peter

Which sucks, as all books in the UK are VAT free, so no 20% to come off before 10% put on.

[kevinlms]

Which sucks, as all books in the UK are VAT free, so no 20% to come off before 10% put on.

But books purchased in Australia are not GST free.