Heath Town and other signalling diversions

[5BarVT]

The down side of using two colours and undercoats is that it takes longer to paint as each has to dry before I can move onto the next.

Paul.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 11/11/2021 at 21:51, 5BarVT said:

Grey sides because I find that isn’t as intrusive as black but doesn’t give a colour bias/clash with any scenery that might one day appear.  White underneath so that it is easier to see wiring etc.  I use combined undercoat primer to seal then top coat grey where it will be seen.  Underneath, I use a top coat because I prefer the semi gloss finish but undercoat only would work.

Paul.

I found the same combination worked for me - like Paul, I also painted the undersides of my small test layout white:

 

In my case it wasn’t for wiring (it only has two wires), but to blend in with the white IKEA table top it sits on which meant any other colour would have clashed:

 

The actual tops of the boards are lime green (it was being sold off cheap) but I used light grey for the cork sheet as a scenic base.  As Paul’s photos show, the combination works well, and painted baseboards are much more popular at home - all part of the deal for layout space (worth the effort).

 

On 11/11/2021 at 21:58, 5BarVT said:

The down side of using two colours and undercoats is that it takes longer to paint as each has to dry before I can move onto the next.

Paul.

But that is the catch - painting is an outside activity for me, which means I probably have to wait for next spring to completely finish the boards I’m now building for my layout…Keith.

 

(Photos borrowed from my layout thread, hope it’s Ok to share them here)

Edited April 8, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Grey sides because I find that isn’t as intrusive as black but doesn’t give a colour bias/clash with any scenery that might one day appear.  White underneath so that it is easier to see wiring etc.  I use combined undercoat primer to seal then top coat grey where it will be seen.  Underneath, I use a top coat because I prefer the semi gloss finish but undercoat only would work.

Paul.

I normally use white primer on the underside but that's partly because it's what I happen to have around.  Ply tops I usually seal with heavily diluted pva to create a better surface for any subsequent colour treatment.

[Andy Keane]

15 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Grey sides because I find that isn’t as intrusive as black but doesn’t give a colour bias/clash with any scenery that might one day appear.  White underneath so that it is easier to see wiring etc.  I use combined undercoat primer to seal then top coat grey where it will be seen.  Underneath, I use a top coat because I prefer the semi gloss finish but undercoat only would work.

Paul.

Paul - have you tried spraying this paint on or is it a good old fashioned bristle brush?

[5BarVT]

Old fashioned brush and you can see the brush marks if you look.  It’s 3’ viewing distance painting!  Water based paint then I can wash the brushes out easily.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

THAT WAS EASY!

 

I've laid the underlay for two curves.  Being a bit CAD orientated (only 'cos I can't draw!) I printed out the track for the corner board.  Cut along the centre line (ish).  The "ish" is because I used the tracksetta as a cutting guide so it was cut to outer running edge radius but "along" the centre line.  Then apply glue and lay the outer half of the foam, again, using the tracksetta as a guide.  Weight and wait.  Once dry, add the inner half foam, weight and wait again.

The 'centre' line will guide track laying using tracksettas to give the accurate radius.

Paul. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

THAT WAS EASY!

 

 

I've laid the underlay for two curves.  Being a bit CAD orientated (only 'cos I can't draw!) I printed out the track for the corner board.  Cut along the centre line (ish).  The "ish" is because I used the tracksetta as a cutting guide so it was cut to outer running edge radius but "along" the centre line.  Then apply glue and lay the outer half of the foam, again, using the tracksetta as a guide.  Weight and wait.  Once dry, add the inner half foam, weight and wait again.

The 'centre' line will guide track laying using tracksettas to give the accurate radius.

Paul. 

Paul

I see how traksetta works with straights and constant radius curves but do you have any tips for curves that change radius as they go around a bend? Or indeed constant radius curves that are not nice round numbers of inches!

regards

Andy

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Paul

I see how traksetta works with straights and constant radius curves but do you have any tips for curves that change radius as they go around a bend? Or indeed constant radius curves that are not nice round numbers of inches!

regards

Andy

Not yet!

Where I have ‘long’ curves I have opted for tracksetta radii.  The plan for double track is to use Peco track gauges SL-36 to set the outer radius.  For the hidden curves I will be using 30” and I have found that 32” is a bit tight for overhang with some of my stock, so as they are hidden I’m using 30” on both lines which spreads the track out as you can see from the underlay.

One of the visible curves I’ve managed to get up to 36” which does give clearance  and the transition I’m hoping to do by eye as I will have the curve and straight alignments marked out and I’ll just let the track do it’s own thing between the two (I hope).  There are some shallow curves in the station which I’ve got to 48” and 60” (tracksetta again!).  And the final curves are part of the approach point work so I intend to position the points first and fit the track in between using trial and error (and a 30” tracksetta to make sure I achieve minimum planned radius).

For transition curves (changing radius) I have also seen reference to using a sequence of tracksettas of increasing diameter coming out of the curve.

Paul.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

THAT WAS EASY!

 

 

I've laid the underlay for two curves.  Being a bit CAD orientated (only 'cos I can't draw!) I printed out the track for the corner board.  Cut along the centre line (ish).  The "ish" is because I used the tracksetta as a cutting guide so it was cut to outer running edge radius but "along" the centre line.  Then apply glue and lay the outer half of the foam, again, using the tracksetta as a guide.  Weight and wait.  Once dry, add the inner half foam, weight and wait again.

The 'centre' line will guide track laying using tracksettas to give the accurate radius.

Paul. 

 

Hi Paul, this looks really good - I do think gentler curves are well worth the extra time spent: the visual effect (and sometimes operating benefits) will last for the life of the layout.

 

On 24/10/2021 at 17:51, 5BarVT said:

Thanks Keith.

I shan't ask if you live on the P.O.S.H. side of the Wirral or the one with decent train services . . .

:-)

Complexity indeed, as will be referred to soon, but there's a long way to go yet before movement worth watching is possible.

Watch this space . . . and be patient!

Paul.

 

PS: I realised I didn’t reply to this - our train Service is excellent! (I understand the question  ).  Keith.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[5BarVT]

DON'T ASSUME RIGHT ANGLES

Some time ago I made up the first of the 1800mm sections and because of the difficulty of getting under the upper boards to where it goes I made it on the floor.  It fitted nicely there . . .

Once it was painted I tried fitting it in place: the end of the corner board isn't a right angle to the back wall so it wouldn't fit . . .  It's either the partition wall at the end of the room, the IKEA shelves that support the layout or the way I've constructed the corner board.  Whatever the cause, it took a while to work out how to adjust the long section - a bit of cutting, and align with only one dowel.

 

Then the fun of making the adjacent ramp started - the sides are not the same length, the end is angled, clearance under the top board is critical, but so is the gradient . . . .

So lots of cut, fit, mark, cut, glue a bit, more trial fit . . . 

 

 

 

 

 

And there it is!  It's in the paint shop drying now.

So on to finish the next corner board which you can see part constructed in the last photo.  The flat bit will be easy: the rising and turning part will be the next experimental challenge.

 

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Not yet!

Where I have ‘long’ curves I have opted for tracksetta radii.  The plan for double track is to use Peco track gauges SL-36 to set the outer radius.  For the hidden curves I will be using 30” and I have found that 32” is a bit tight for overhang with some of my stock, so as they are hidden I’m using 30” on both lines which spreads the track out as you can see from the underlay.

One of the visible curves I’ve managed to get up to 36” which does give clearance  and the transition I’m hoping to do by eye as I will have the curve and straight alignments marked out and I’ll just let the track do it’s own thing between the two (I hope).  There are some shallow curves in the station which I’ve got to 48” and 60” (tracksetta again!).  And the final curves are part of the approach point work so I intend to position the points first and fit the track in between using trial and error (and a 30” tracksetta to make sure I achieve minimum planned radius).

For transition curves (changing radius) I have also seen reference to using a sequence of tracksettas of increasing diameter coming out of the curve.

Paul.

Paul

Thanks for this. All my curves are very gentle except the transition from the fiddle yard to the station where I don't have as much room as I would like if I want a big fiddle yard (and who wants a small fiddle yard). And as I am using Peco bullhead code 75 I am worried about this curve. The peco track is like using freshly cooked spaghetti - it is so floppy I cannot get it to take up a smooth curve on its own, hence my interest in gauges. In the end I may try and get a special traksetta like gauge laser cut for this one to get it right. But looking at a pair of the fixed radius curves may be a possibility.

regards

Andy

[St Enodoc]

18 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Or indeed constant radius curves that are not nice round numbers of inches!

 

17 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

For the hidden curves I will be using 30” and I have found that 32” is a bit tight for overhang with some of my stock,

If one of your curves matches a Tracksetta, then obviously you can use that. Then use a track spacer (e.g. Proses) set to the spacing you want for the double track.

 

If you have a circular curve that doesn't match a Tracksetta at all, and you have room on your baseboard, lay a temporary track using a Tracksetta then lay the permanent track using the track spacer as above.

 

For an inner radius of 30" you really need an outer radius about 60mm bigger.

Edited November 17, 2021 by St Enodoc
speling

[Andy Keane]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

 

If one of your curves matches a Tracksetta, then obviously you can use that. Then use a track spacer (e.g. Proses) set to the spacing you want for the double track.

 

If you have a circular curve that don'ts match a Tracksetta at all, and you have room on your baseboard, lay a temporary track using a Tracksetta then lay the permanent track using the track spacer as above.

 

For an inner radius of 30" you really need an outer radius about 60mm bigger.

Thanks for that - had not thought of usin the tracksetta and parallel setter together - neat trick.

[Andy Keane]

On 16/11/2021 at 15:27, 5BarVT said:

Not yet!

Where I have ‘long’ curves I have opted for tracksetta radii.  The plan for double track is to use Peco track gauges SL-36 to set the outer radius.  For the hidden curves I will be using 30” and I have found that 32” is a bit tight for overhang with some of my stock, so as they are hidden I’m using 30” on both lines which spreads the track out as you can see from the underlay.

One of the visible curves I’ve managed to get up to 36” which does give clearance  and the transition I’m hoping to do by eye as I will have the curve and straight alignments marked out and I’ll just let the track do it’s own thing between the two (I hope).  There are some shallow curves in the station which I’ve got to 48” and 60” (tracksetta again!).  And the final curves are part of the approach point work so I intend to position the points first and fit the track in between using trial and error (and a 30” tracksetta to make sure I achieve minimum planned radius).

For transition curves (changing radius) I have also seen reference to using a sequence of tracksettas of increasing diameter coming out of the curve.

Paul.

Paul,

To be clear, you don't have any issue running on 30" curves in terms of derailing or hauling / pushing stock provided they are correctly spaced? Its the look of the thing that leads you to prefer 36". Its just the shunt ahead action at Helston will involve me pushing stock out of my station towards the fiddle yard and onto the tightest curve I have. If I go 30" I have a nice long fiddle yard, while at 36" I loose a good deal in the yard (on all lines of course). It won't be very visibile since its behind a bridge in a cutting, but its a key layout decision for me.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Andy

[5BarVT]

39 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Paul,

To be clear, you don't have any issue running on 30" curves in terms of derailing or hauling / pushing stock provided they are correctly spaced? Its the look of the thing that leads you to prefer 36". Its just the shunt ahead action at Helston will involve me pushing stock out of my station towards the fiddle yard and onto the tightest curve I have. If I go 30" I have a nice long fiddle yard, while at 36" I loose a good deal in the yard (on all lines of course). It won't be very visibile since its behind a bridge in a cutting, but its a key layout decision for me.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Andy

If you go back to page 1, the three outer FY roads were fed by R4 curves (~22.5”) and I pulled and pushed 4 coaches through them at a reasonable speed without trouble.  As long as your stock can manage the curves (and RTR will) there is no problem.  Care in tracklaying helps.

Yes the 36” is purely for looks.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Paul,

To be clear, you don't have any issue running on 30" curves in terms of derailing or hauling / pushing stock provided they are correctly spaced? Its the look of the thing that leads you to prefer 36". Its just the shunt ahead action at Helston will involve me pushing stock out of my station towards the fiddle yard and onto the tightest curve I have. If I go 30" I have a nice long fiddle yard, while at 36" I loose a good deal in the yard (on all lines of course). It won't be very visibile since its behind a bridge in a cutting, but its a key layout decision for me.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Andy

Andy, all the curves on the branch line on my layout are 30" radius. I don't think you will have any problems either operationally or visually, especially with tank engines. Go for it and get the extra length.

[Andy Keane]

On 13/07/2019 at 17:51, 5BarVT said:

Decoders fitted. Here is the new fleet almost ready for service. 

 

They all need fine tuning and setting up.  I tend to run with a max speed of 40mph as that is plenty for my layout, acceleration and deceleration set to zero as that works better with Traincontroller.  I have an alternative set up with higher speed and proper acceleration characteristics should they ever be used on a different layout.  D6506 needs further work as there is an intermittent fault: it was working fine before the lid went on but won't budge now.  Lid off and try a different connector I think.

 

D1072 (not that you'd know) needs name and number plates fitted, fortunately Dapol have a dotted line to show where.  I don't get on well with paint or glue so I'm holding back through fear of spoiling things.  Any suggestions for type of glue and tips for not getting it everywhere? 

 

Paul

Paul

I have been back and forwards through your posts picking up good ideas. But I am not sure quite how you sized the width of the yard boards.

Do you have rules of thumb as to how close to the edge you allow your fiddle yard tracks to be? Clearly you don't want anything overhanging but I notice you don't have any protective sides which of course helps access but maybe makes things a tad vulnerable to brushing up against stuff by accident? I have been thinking of clear perspex sides to the yard boards perhaps an inch high to protect stock?

regards

Andy

[5BarVT]

On 19/11/2021 at 18:07, Andy Keane said:

Paul

I have been back and forwards through your posts picking up good ideas. But I am not sure quite how you sized the width of the yard boards.

Do you have rules of thumb as to how close to the edge you allow your fiddle yard tracks to be? Clearly you don't want anything overhanging but I notice you don't have any protective sides which of course helps access but maybe makes things a tad vulnerable to brushing up against stuff by accident? I have been thinking of clear perspex sides to the yard boards perhaps an inch high to protect stock?

regards

Andy

All of my FY boards on the last two layouts have had edge protection.  First time around it was battleship built with 125x9mm ply sides and 19mm PSE screwed on at at 100mm height to support the 6mm top.  This time around it’s slightly less battleship: 100x6mm sides supporting the top with 125x4mm sides laminated on.

Thus the protection is 25mm less 6mm top less 3mm cork so about 16mm high.  Just enough to catch something before it goes over the edge.  I space my track at 50mm/2”/PECO track gauge depending on what I’m using at the time with an extra 1” at the edges. So on the photo you quoted, it was 2” from the rear track to the edge and at the front it was about 1 3/4”.

The constraints are getting fingers in to rerail stock: if the conflict point is an adjacent line it’s usually possible to shuffle stock about to get in, a fixed protector doesn’t move.

Easiest way is to try and see!

Paul.

Edited November 23, 2021 by 5BarVT
Auto incorrect

[5BarVT]

GOING ROUND THE BEND (Slowly!)

 

Its a month since I last posted.  Progress has been a bit slow (I nearly titled this post "I hate curves") but we're getting there.

I should have taken this photo before I covered up my handiwork, but you get the gist and it's just more of the same.

 

And this is the trackwork for Phase 2 (ish).  I needed the double junctions down to cut and align the new track, but as Phase 1 omits the continuous run and needs to connect top left to bottom right, it will now come out to be replaced with plain line.

 

 

Over Christmas (perhaps) will be fitting out the droppers and electricals to these boards.

 

Paul.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[Andy Keane]

58 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

GOING ROUND THE BEND (Slowly!)

 

Its a month since I last posted.  Progress has been a bit slow (I nearly titled this post "I hate curves") but we're getting there.

I should have taken this photo before I covered up my handiwork, but you get the gist and it's just more of the same.

 

And this is the trackwork for Phase 2 (ish).  I needed the double junctions down to cut and align the new track, but as Phase 1 omits the continuous run and needs to connect top left to bottom right, it will now come out to be replaced with plain line.

 

Over Christmas (perhaps) will be fitting out the droppers and electricals to these boards.

 

Paul.

 

Paul

Are you still using diluted copydex to put the track down or have you gone back to PVA? I am about to start track laying myself and am probably going to put down the cork with PVA and then the track with more PVA plus a few track pins at crucial locations, and of course solder to screws at board joints. Probably the "No Nonsense" PVA from screwfix that is £10 for 5 litres rather than craft glue which is about ten times more expensive.

regards

Andy

ps - do cut your track with one of the thin dremel 409 cutting wheels or do you have some cunning scheme?

[5BarVT]

On 19/12/2021 at 15:01, Andy Keane said:

Paul

Are you still using diluted copydex to put the track down or have you gone back to PVA? I am about to start track laying myself and am probably going to put down the cork with PVA and then the track with more PVA plus a few track pins at crucial locations, and of course solder to screws at board joints. Probably the "No Nonsense" PVA from screwfix that is £10 for 5 litres rather than craft glue which is about ten times more expensive.

regards

Andy

ps - do cut your track with one of the thin dremel 409 cutting wheels or do you have some cunning scheme?

Hi Andy,

 

Still using dilute latex.  Following advice after my previous problems, here's a photo of what I've achieved.  I redesigned with a short straight where I needed to join sections of flexitrack (1/2" - 1 1/2") and used Peco SL-11 fishplates.  There is a slight straightening effect but it doesn't seem to affect running (push testing).

 

 

I have a Proxxon rather than a Dremel but I don't get on with cutting track with it (poor technique I think) as it gets stuck sometimes so I withdraw to release and then find I've cut in a different place as shown here . . .

 

 

My current favourite approach is a razor saw (32 t.p.i. I think, 3/4" blade) with a bit of ply to act as a guide.  Thus:

 

 

And this is what I achieve - much neater.

 

 

In theory, that could be too close and result in the rails touching with expansion.  If that becomes a problem I will go back with a grinding disc or something to trim one rail back slightly.

 

And having the camera out to take those photos allows me to show how Phase 1 will work.

 

 

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Andy,

 

Still using dilute latex.  Following advice after my previous problems, here's a photo of what I've achieved.  I redesigned with a short straight where I needed to join sections of flexitrack (1/2" - 1 1/2") and used Peco SL-11 fishplates.  There is a slight straightening effect but it doesn't seem to affect running (push testing).

 

I have a Proxxon rather than a Dremel but I don't get on with cutting track with it (poor technique I think) as it gets stuck sometimes so I withdraw to release and then find I've cut in a different place as shown here . . .

 

My current favourite approach is a razor saw (32 t.p.i. I think, 3/4" blade) with a bit of ply to act as a guide.  Thus:

 

And this is what I achieve - much neater.

 

In theory, that could be too close and result in the rails touching with expansion.  If that becomes a problem I will go back with a grinding disc or something to trim one rail back slightly.

 

And having the camera out to take those photos allows me to show how Phase 1 will work.

 

Paul.

Nice work - You really are going to have an awful lot of track by the time you are finished!

My xacto has two razor saw blades, one has 42 teeth per inch and a one inch deep blade and the other is a bit finer at 54 and that is the 3/4" deep blade so maybe thats the one you are using. I will experiment on some spare track. I guess as ever the trick is to be patient and not force it.

regards

Andy

[5BarVT]

11 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

My xacto has two razor saw blades, one has 42 teeth per inch and a one inch deep blade and the other is a bit finer at 54 and that is the 3/4" deep blade so maybe thats the one you are using. I will experiment on some spare track. I guess as ever the trick is to be patient and not force it.

I have two blades too, and it was the coarser one I used (so probably 42 not the 34 I said!), but I have previously used the finer one.

Paul.

[Graham T]

I found that using a piece of wood as a guide for the saw really helped, especially when cutting Code 75 rail.

[Andy Keane]

6 minutes ago, Graham T said:

I found that using a piece of wood as a guide for the saw really helped, especially when cutting Code 75 rail.

Maybe a little jig like the old fashioned mitre blocks. I maybe will make one up in some hardwood.