Colour light ground signals - when were they introduced?

[Foden]

Hello all, I'm looking for information/examples of when colour light ground signals were introduced, and whether their introduction in place of the old manual disk ground signals was considered a priority?

 

Would there have been any examples where a small yard would have been converted (not newly built) to colour light ground signals, even when the main running line was still operating under semaphores, and if so, would the manual box have operation over the 'new' ground signals?

[The Stationmaster]

Hello all, I'm looking for information/examples of when colour light ground signals were introduced, and whether their introduction in place of the old manual disk ground signals was considered a priority?

 

Would there have been any examples where a small yard would have been converted (not newly built) to colour light ground signals, even when the main running line was still operating under semaphores, and if so, would the manual box have operation over the 'new' ground signals?

 

If you are talking about the sort of position light ground signals we are familiar with today then I would say probably 1936/37 on one of the Leeds schemes but someone else might be able to give far more precise information.  They were definitely designed into the York scheme which was deferred due to WWII.  But they were far from universal as in some cases miniature colour lights were used - a practice which started in the 1920s if not earlier while various sorts of discs were also used as shunt and subsidiary signals in colour light schemes.

 

And just what are you thinking of when you mention a yard having shunting signals as in most cases apart from mechanised yards the norm would have been handpoints with no fixed signals at all.  Have you some sort of particular situation in mind? 

[The Johnster]

i think the general answer would be no; colour light ground signals were usually introduced in connection with MAS (Multiple Aspect Signalling) schemes and replaced semaphores wholesale over quite large areas.  Track layout was often 'rationalised' in conjunction with such schemes, which would make it even less likely.

 

I am sure somebody here will come up with an exception that I knew about all along and have forgotten, but I can't think of one off hand!  Semaphore signalling is controlled by the local box, including the ground signals, or by a ground frame released from the box; colour light MAS was controlled from the relevant panel (they call them signalling centres now), or by a ground frame released by the panel. 

 

To endorse what Mike's just said, I am assuming you mean the sort of BR standard MAS scheme that was introduced over the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s; there are all sorts of other systems such as the GW's searchlight system at Paddington, Temple Meads, and Cardiff General.  These largely replicated semaphore working with lit signals which gave the same, or similar, aspects, but were controlled electrically or pneumatically from the local box.  There are no signals in yards (unless they are mechanised) as Mike says, but a ground signal may control the exit from the yard on to the running lines.  Movements within the yard are controlled by hand signals from staff on the ground, and cannot really be modelled!

 

To summarise, if one is modelling normal or usual practice, keep semaphore ground signals with semaphore main signals, and MAS ones with MAS.  'Fringe' boxes, where MAS ended and semaphore began, would use semaphore type ground signals.

Edited July 22, 2018 by The Johnster

[Foden]

If you are talking about the sort of position light ground signals we are familiar with today then I would say probably 1936/37 on one of the Leeds schemes but someone else might be able to give far more precise information.  They were definitely designed into the York scheme which was deferred due to WWII.  But they were far from universal as in some cases miniature colour lights were used - a practice which started in the 1920s if not earlier while various sorts of discs were also used as shunt and subsidiary signals in colour light schemes.

 

And just what are you thinking of when you mention a yard having shunting signals as in most cases apart from mechanised yards the norm would have been handpoints with no fixed signals at all.  Have you some sort of particular situation in mind? 

 

 

Thanks for the input Mike.

 

No particular situation from the real world to draw on as such, I just take my mind back to the early 90s when I was a young boy spotting trains around various places in the country with my father. I recall seeing plenty of the 'old' white and red discs, but don't recall many of the colour light ground signals at the time. I have no pictures to draw memories from, just my rather sketchy recollection of what I seen.

 

As one tends to, I model the era I fondly remember, and would like to use semaphore signals on a running line, with a ground signal or two signalling the divergence to a freight yard. I'm wondering if it would be historically correct to use colour light ground signals to signal off a main running line that was controlled by semaphores in around let's say 1990. Once  into the yard ofcourse, the point control would give way to ground frames and no fixed signalling. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Foden

[Foden]

i think the general answer would be no; colour light ground signals were usually introduced in connection with MAS (Multiple Aspect Signalling) schemes and replaced semaphores wholesale over quite large areas.  Track layout was often 'rationalised' in conjunction with such schemes, which would make it even less likely.

 

I am sure somebody here will come up with an exception that I knew about all along and have forgotten, but I can't think of one off hand!  Semaphore signalling is controlled by the local box, including the ground signals, or by a ground frame released from the box; colour light MAS was controlled from the relevant panel (they call them signalling centres now), or by a ground frame released by the panel. 

 

To endorse what Mike's just said, I am assuming you mean the sort of BR standard MAS scheme that was introduced over the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s; there are all sorts of other systems such as the GW's searchlight system at Paddington, Temple Meads, and Cardiff General.  These largely replicated semaphore working with lit signals which gave the same, or similar, aspects, but were controlled electrically or pneumatically from the local box.  There are no signals in yards (unless they are mechanised) as Mike says, but a ground signal may control the exit from the yard on to the running lines.  Movements within the yard are controlled by hand signals from staff on the ground, and cannot really be modelled!

 

To summarise, if one is modelling normal or usual practice, keep semaphore ground signals with semaphore main signals, and MAS ones with MAS.  'Fringe' boxes, where MAS ended and semaphore began, would use semaphore type ground signals.

 

That's very informative Johnster, and I think answers my question. Thankyou.

[iands]

... I'm wondering if it would be historically correct to use colour light ground signals to signal off a main running line that was controlled by semaphores in around let's say 1990. Once  into the yard ofcourse, the point control would give way to ground frames and no fixed signalling...

 

One example I can think of in this period (80s-90s) is at York, although movements routed mostly via main colour light signals rather than ground signals. Freights travelling via York Yard South/York Yard North (avoiding the station) would be signalled from MAS (York PSB/York Yard South) to York Yard North semaphore signalling - and before it closed and control transferring to York IECC, back to MAS at Skelton Junction, and the reverse for freights travelling north to south.

 

I'm sure there will be other examples.

 

Regards, Ian

[beast66606]

I am sure somebody here will come up with an exception that I knew about all along and have forgotten, but I can't think of one off hand!  Semaphore signalling is controlled by the local box, including the ground signals, or by a ground frame released from the box; colour light MAS was controlled from the relevant panel (they call them signalling centres now), or by a ground frame released by the panel. 

 

The WCML North of Nuneaton was until relatively recently controlled by  conventional signal boxes working colour lights forming MAS, and ground discs were used rather than GPLS.

[Theakerr]

There is a video on U-Tube about a mid war run from Kings Cross to Edinburgh that show colour light ground signals along with semaphore signals at Edinburgh.  If I can find it again I will post the name.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The WCML North of Nuneaton was until relatively recently controlled by  conventional signal boxes working colour lights forming MAS, and ground discs were used rather than GPLS.

Those at Stockport lasted until about 2005 IIRC.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Would there have been any examples where a small yard would have been converted (not newly built) to colour light ground signals, even when the main running line was still operating under semaphores, and if so, would the manual box have operation over the 'new' ground signals?

Yes, but I'm not sure how we got away with it. For the closure of Langley Green East box in 1972(?) we did have a position light ground signal leaving the sidings towards Smethwick West. It was controlled by Langley Green Middle, but all of the main line signals were still semaphore.

[iands]

There might still be one example still in use, Eastfield at Peterborough. Eastfield still works semaphore signals around the yard area but not sure if it controls any colour-light ground signals. Can anyone confirm?

 

Regards, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the input Mike.

 

No particular situation from the real world to draw on as such, I just take my mind back to the early 90s when I was a young boy spotting trains around various places in the country with my father. I recall seeing plenty of the 'old' white and red discs, but don't recall many of the colour light ground signals at the time. I have no pictures to draw memories from, just my rather sketchy recollection of what I seen.

 

As one tends to, I model the era I fondly remember, and would like to use semaphore signals on a running line, with a ground signal or two signalling the divergence to a freight yard. I'm wondering if it would be historically correct to use colour light ground signals to signal off a main running line that was controlled by semaphores in around let's say 1990. Once  into the yard ofcourse, the point control would give way to ground frames and no fixed signalling. 

 

Signal Engineer has quoted an example the opposite way round but I'm pretty sure what you'd be very unlikely to find in Britain is colour light ground signals reading off a line which has semaphore signalling - that would be very unusual indeed.

[Rugd1022]

The WCML North of Nuneaton was until relatively recently controlled by  conventional signal boxes working colour lights forming MAS, and ground discs were used rather than GPLS.

 

Indeed, until Stafford was remodelled in recent times, No.4 and No.5 boxes there both had ground discs controlling certain movements.

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed, until Stafford was remodelled in recent times, No.4 and No.5 boxes there both had ground discs controlling certain movements.

 

One of which would - if plans had ever come to fruition - have been the only mechanically worked signal in Britain used to signal a Eurostar set for a booked move (ECS reversing).  Not a lot of people know that

[beast66606]

Indeed, until Stafford was remodelled in recent times, No.4 and No.5 boxes there both had ground discs controlling certain movements.

 

Allerton and Speke still do.

[w124bob]

The ground signals around Manchester Victoria were of a 2 aspect red/white design which I think dated back to a 50's design, these were replaced with conventional BR red white colour light ground signals in the early 80's. Except for the signalmounted one giving access to the bay sidings , this remained a single white light below the main aspect. 142's caused problems here as the white could only be cleared once you on a certain track circuit, not a problem with locos but the set back axle on a 142 meant you right on the signal before it would clear.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The ground signals around Manchester Victoria were of a 2 aspect red/white design which I think dated back to a 50's design, these were replaced with conventional BR red white colour light ground signals in the early 80's. Except for the signalmounted one giving access to the bay sidings , this remained a single white light below the main aspect. 142's caused problems here as the white could only be cleared once you on a certain track circuit, not a problem with locos but the set back axle on a 142 meant you right on the signal before it would clear.

Miniature multi-aspect ground shunt signals were introduced at Manchester Victoria in 1929. https://www.ekeving.se/ext/uk/VicEx_Manchester/index.html

Edited July 23, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you are talking about the sort of position light ground signals we are familiar with today then I would say probably 1936/37 on one of the Leeds schemes but someone else might be able to give far more precise information.  They were definitely designed into the York scheme which was deferred due to WWII.  But they were far from universal as in some cases miniature colour lights were used - a practice which started in the 1920s if not earlier while various sorts of discs were also used as shunt and subsidiary signals in colour light schemes.

 

And just what are you thinking of when you mention a yard having shunting signals as in most cases apart from mechanised yards the norm would have been handpoints with no fixed signals at all.  Have you some sort of particular situation in mind? 

Leeds certainly had them in the 1937 scheme. The only difference from the standard pre-LED BR signals was that in some circumstances they showed two horizontal white lights for on rather than a red and white, which if I remember correctly was only used at a place where you could run off a trap by passing it at danger.

At the same tine the Southern were still using semaphore discs, electrically operated and floodlit.

The LMS  used mechanical ground signals on Mirfield resignalling in 1932 but were using position light ground signals where there were power frames by the time of the various renewals of boxes at Crewe in 1937-40.

Edited July 23, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

Leeds certainly had them in the 1937 scheme. The only difference from the standard pre-LED BR signals was that in some circumstances they showed two horizontal white lights for on rather than a red and white, which if I remember correctly was only used at a place where you could run off a trap by passing it at danger.

At the same tine the Southern were still using semaphore discs, electrically operated and floodlit.

The LMS  used mechanical ground signals on Mirfield resignalling in 1932 but were using position light ground signals where there were power frames by the time of the various renewals of boxes at Crewe in 1937-40.

 

From memory of seeing them in use most(all?) of those in the Leeds scheme used two horizontal white lights and that was definitely the case in some which were sited for reversing movers in running lines - they survived like that into the very early 1960s and possibly until the next resignalling.

 

The Southern continued with the use of discs in new work in colour light signalled areas right up until the resignalling of the LSW mainline for the Bournemouth electrification and I think that marked the changeover to using position lights in new work in mas schemes on the Region.

[eastwestdivide]

...The Southern continued with the use of discs in new work in colour light signalled areas right up until the resignalling of the LSW mainline for the Bournemouth electrification and I think that marked the changeover to using position lights in new work in mas schemes on the Region.

Interestingly, Rochester retained some discs to at least 2015, although the signal head above this one is an LED replacement:

 

I've posted this before, but it shows the same spot and same signal, ER9, in 1985, with a bit of a mishap (or for EMU aficionados, a mis-CAP):

 

Also in 2015, at the other end of the down island platform platform is ER8, which seems to have a colour light replacement for the disc covered up, presumably ahead of the imminent decommissioning of Rochester box:

[TheSignalEngineer]

From memory of seeing them in use most(all?) of those in the Leeds scheme used two horizontal white lights and that was definitely the case in some which were sited for reversing movers in running lines - they survived like that into the very early 1960s and possibly until the next resignalling.

 

The Southern continued with the use of discs in new work in colour light signalled areas right up until the resignalling of the LSW mainline for the Bournemouth electrification and I think that marked the changeover to using position lights in new work in mas schemes on the Region.

This extract of Leeds West box from the original traffic notice depicts the PLGS with a red light at traps, W27 and W28, by having a dot in the left-hand lamp position.

Similarly W53 is at a Derailer.

 

 

I haven't worked out why W29 has a red light, but it it is possibly because if the points are reverse you could end up in the turntable pit.

 

The use of the double signal, W54A/B is because of the different characteristics of the routes. The left route is a stabling siding whilst the right one is a through line to Leeds East box.

[Edwin_m]

Could an alternative explanation be that the shunt signals with a red light are those that are not passed by a main route? 

 

There is an aversion to having trains pass a red light of any sort (though an exception is made for main signals with subsidiary aspects).  More recent practice is to clear any shunt signals in line of route when the main route is set through them (known as "pre-set shunts" in SSI parlance and in the signalling glossary although others may know it by different names).  I dimly recall that this came about because someone decided that two whites in a horizontal rather than a sloping arrangement didn't convey a powerful enough message to stop so later schemes had the red in the lower left hand lamp (only lit as part of the stop aspect) and the interlocking logic for the pre-setting.  This was ultimately replaced by the current arrangement where the lower right hand lamp can show either colour. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Edwin_m

[TheSignalEngineer]

From the Traffic Notice it looks as if that could be right. Without the Control Tables it is impossible to tell but it doesn't look as if Main aspects pre-set shunt signals in the route. My reading of it is that a subsidiary signal could be passed under the authority of a main signal if it had two white light for the On position.

[Swindon 123]

Hereford has colour lights for the main aspects, but the shunt signals are a random mix of GPL's and ground disks. Gobowen went a stage further, and had a mix of colour lights and semaphore signals, for both main aspect/signals and shunt moves. Also although signalled from an old fashioned box, access to the old Oswestry branch was controlled by a power ground frame, the only one I ever came across in my railway career. When it came to signalling, I found that sometimes, resignalling at a location could be very haphazard, and depended on local circumstances sometimes, unless it was part of a much larger scheme.

 

Paul J.

[E3109]

Indeed, until Stafford was remodelled in recent times, No.4 and No.5 boxes there both had ground discs controlling certain movements.

I was going to mention Stafford, until 4 and 5 were abolished colour light main aspects with disc ground signals were the norm at that location.

 

Wigan Wallgate was resignalled a few years ago (2005-ish) and the same applied there, prior to the new scheme although the signals and of course the newish GPLs are still operated from Wallgate box, for now at least.

 

One of my colleagues said at the time, that the resignalling actually made certain illegal moves legal... I couldn't possibly comment on that...

Edited July 26, 2018 by E3109