Automation test layout

[Andymsa]

Yes the tortoise hasn't been developed more from what it is, but does it have to if something works has a proven track record why improve it, it's like reinventing the wheel.

[Junctionmad]

Yes the tortoise hasn't been developed more from what it is, but does it have to if something works has a proven track record why improve it, it's like reinventing the wheel.

The ford cortina has a very proven track record , it’s not made still , is to

 

Better products come along that’s a fact of engineering

 

Merely that a product works to its intended spec ( leaving aside the historical issues with the switch in the tortoise ) is not in itself a reason to justify its existence.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Andymsa]

The ford cortina has a very proven track record , it’s not made still , is to

Better products come along that’s a fact of engineering

Merely that a product works to its intended spec ( leaving aside the historical issues with the switch in the tortoise ) is not in itself a reason to justify its existence.

Like cross rail trains, umm better engineering my a**e. Better engineering doesn't make a better product

[jamespetts]

This seems to have evolved into a rather immature, non-evidence-based argument about the relative merits of different stall motors. Rather than disparage those who hold different views about the relative merits of each, it would be much more useful for anyone reading this thread to put forward clear data as to the precise relative merits of each sort of stall motor under discussion.

[Andymsa]

This seems to have evolved into a rather immature, non-evidence-based argument about the relative merits of different stall motors. Rather than disparage those who hold different views about the relative merits of each, it would be much more useful for anyone reading this thread to put forward clear data as to the precise relative merits of each sort of stall motor under discussion.

Your absolutely correct and apologies, but it does get under my skin when a biased view is taken and to put down an objective response is it different from ones own methods of doing things.

[Junctionmad]

This seems to have evolved into a rather immature, non-evidence-based argument about the relative merits of different stall motors. Rather than disparage those who hold different views about the relative merits of each, it would be much more useful for anyone reading this thread to put forward clear data as to the precise relative merits of each sort of stall motor under discussion.

Excuse men. I laid clearly out the precise comparisons that show cobalt analog IP is a superior product to the tortoise , that doesnt mean the tortoise doesn’t work , or in fact work well , it’s just on an factual basis the IP has better specifications

 

See my post #48

Edited September 23, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Your absolutely correct and apologies, but it does get under my skin when a biased view is taken and to put down an objective response is it different from ones own methods of doing things.

Sorry “ biased “ , if you mesn I put forward a comprehensive comparison in post #48, to which you replied , basically “ well I’m happy “ , that’s fine , I went to the trouble some time ago to dismantle both , my comments in#48 are as a result of that. I’ve no axe to grind with tortoises, merely a disparate factual comparison

 

No opporsing facts were advanced to counter my post , merely a comment about tie bar adjustment which I could contend can be argued either way

 

The fact remains on a simple factual comparison the cobalt analog IP is better , this is not surprising given DCC concepts have had considerable time to gain experience from both the tortoise and their two previous cobalt motors

 

But of course as was said a year or two ago “ we don’t need experts “

 

Ones “ belief “ these days seems to the new substitute for hard facts . I blame social media and Rupert Murdock myself

Edited September 23, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Like cross rail trains, umm better engineering my a**e. Better engineering doesn't make a better product

Better engineering always makes a better engineered product , however the product may not be better “ liked” by the customer , the two are significantly different.

 

Many products of course are not iteratively better engineered , again a different issue.

[Junctionmad]

This seems to have evolved into a rather immature, non-evidence-based argument about the relative merits of different stall motors. Rather than disparage those who hold different views about the relative merits of each, it would be much more useful for anyone reading this thread to put forward clear data as to the precise relative merits of each sort of stall motor under discussion.

You obviously didn’t read post #48 .

[jamespetts]

If only the people on this forum had the same sort of maturity and decorum as those in places such as the N Gauge Forum, the MERG forum and the Simutrans forum, engaging in discussion here would be a much more pleasant and constructive affair.

 

I was not referring to post no. 48 - I was referring to all the nonsense since.

Edited September 23, 2018 by jamespetts

[Andymsa]

Hi James

 

I was wondering if you have made progress on the method of point control and what accessory control method that will be used.

[jamespetts]

I have not made further progress at this stage: the decoration work in the shed has yet to be completed (the decorator is having trouble finding out what sort of primer, if any, should be used on the ceramic fibreboard cladding used in the shed), and I have been focussing on modifying the design of the track layout to take account of where the board joints are likely to need to go and also thinking about the position of the uncouplers.

 

I may well undertake some testing to compare all the different methods before committing to any one method. One consideration is that there are likely to need to be four board joints on my layout in total, meaning that clearances between the board joints and the turnouts in some places might be limited: I am told by the people from whom I have sought a quote for building the baseboard that there is a 40mm strip (20mm each side of the joint) next to each joint used for attaching the two boards, and so the turnout motors including housing, attachment and linkage will need to be clear of this.

 

The updated track plan showing those board joints is here:

 

 

I am not sure which of the three principal options at this stage (being, in no particular order, Tortoise motors, the Cobolt IP Analog motors (in each case driven by the CML board) and servo motors (driven by the LocoServo board)) would be best suited to accommodate this (i.e., which can more readily be offset underneath and/or which has the smallest footprint, and which of those two characteristics is in any event more important in this context).

 

If anyone is able to assist with this specific aspect of things, I should be most grateful.

[WIMorrison]

Given the number of motors that you are going to require and the fundamental nature of the requirement to match your specific needs I suggest that you would be best served by purchasing one of each and testing them with a small demonstration layout that emulates the most restrictive situation you envisage.

 

I know from practical experience that even the most complex and comprehensive plans and drawing rarely survive intact with their first encounter with a real world test

[Andymsa]

If anyone is able to assist with this specific aspect of things, I should be most grateful.

Hi James,

 

I be more than happy to help with the cml/tortoise combo, ( with traincontroller). it is possible to offset the tortoise if needed. I would be more than happy if you needed see my setup with this combo, as I am not that far away from you. Maybe someone with the other combos may be able to assist in this regard. The advantage would be those users would have ironed out this kinks and saves you the outlay of building a test layout.

 

I have built a dac from scratch as there was an option to do this when these boards where sold by cml. and there are some things that can be done that are not public knowledge as I have done these mods in cooperation with the current retailer of the dacs. Also there are points that you need to be aware of when using a dac but I won't put these points in a public forum as i do not wish to have any misunderstandings.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Andymsa

[jamespetts]

Thank you both for your replies - there may well be something to be said for undertaking some tests, although that may now have to wait until my shed is fitted out.

 

Andy - it would be very interesting to see your setup. One thing that does concern me a little with Tortoise motors (and stall motors generally, but perhaps more Tortoise motors owing to their size) is the spacing of these motors in N gauge. The people from whom I am obtaining a quote for the construction of the baseboars recently wrote to me in these terms:

 

 

 

The board joins look OK however with under board cobalt motors installed into N gauge turnouts you need to order the orientation of the motors so that on two adjacent lines set at the standard way spacing, if two tie bars fall adjacent the motors have to be fitted opposite as there is no space to fit adjacent i.e. one towards the toe end and the other towards the frog. You may have an issue with close proximity to the edge frame at 20mm wide.

 

That was in relation to the Cobolt IP motors, which are slightly smaller, and the discussion was related to positioning the turnout motors relative to the board joint positions (as shown in the image in my previous post). I do not know whether using servo motors would be likely to alleviate this issue.

 

I am aware that the Cobolt IP motors need special adaptors to go with the CML boards, which the Tortoise motors do not need. Other than this, I do not know about any modifications (which I imagine is not surprising if it is not common knowledge), and I am intrigued as to what such modifications might achieve.

 

Perhaps send me a PM if you do not want to post this publicly (perhaps for fear that people might get it wrong and destroy their boards)?

 

Thank you again both for your help.

[Andymsa]

Hi James,

 

I did send a private pm in reply