Trouble at the AGM?

[robmcg]

The apple green B1 is really under rated, it’s a lovely model. I may still buy another and do it as 61306.

 

There is a pattern to failure I’ve seen in some models...

If the initial RRP is too high, resistance from the public sets in, and it gains a reputation, that leads people to ignore it.

At that point it becomes entrenched and no matter the discount there becomes a point where it won’t sell no matter how cheap it is as the perception is there’s plenty more where they came from... so urgency is removed, and as desirability already passed when it was released, it simply becomes shelfware after an initial discounted sale spike.

 

Examples include this B1 which was £150+ head and shoulder over standard B1s at the time, still £87 at Hattons

Midland Compounds from Bachmann also set the bar too high at the time and 5+ years on still meander the discount aisle.

Heljan 02’s which will probably be around at £89 a good while yet.

 

Nothing wrong with the models, but if the price had been equivalent to its peers at release i’d speculate they may have sold better.

Indeed a good example of this is the 76/77s... overpriced at release, inflation caught them up, but when discounted it wasn’t a fire sale.. just a small discount on a perception of a limited quantity... urgency was there and now mostly gone.

 

I don’t think it’s the case in the 71.. more like two manufacturers going head to head and both lost. The ebay going rate for these is c£80, repackaging them isn’t to change that, unfortunately if they are to make a dent it would need to be £50.. trouble is.. there still no urgency and perception of plenty more where they came from... best hope in my opinion is waste the bodies, do a mass deal with a kit builder who may get a good business case to do a run of limited edition kit built / finished 74’s off the back of it.

 

Many a truth written there.  I fully concur with the reading of the situation regarding B1s, LMS Compounds and 02s.   I personally like the DJ weathered 71 but am not sure what a 76/77 is.  BR Standard 2-6-0 to me, and the 77 is ugly to boot....

 

Selling models at the right price for profit, as well as the size of production run and associated pricing is obviously the key to Hornby's recovery.  The unhappiness about the previous CEO's package is a very small issue really.  I recall the fire sale of the latest GW Kings about 12 months ago at £89-99-ish but they now seem to sell at £120-150.  Hornby will know how many such models, and trainsets and scenery and other brands of models are selling, but I do not.

 

I find myself edging towards a collector's mindset these days, the appeal of such as an L1 or B1 for £80 is quite strong, even if the market collapses they are still lovely to look at.  I think people once felt the same about Wrenn.

 

A nice thing from the AGM would be an idea from the CEO about future plans, strategies, and likely production schedules. 

 

I doubt there will be an announcement of production of this B1....  ex-GCR 

 

Edited pic, will remove if it offends.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by robmcg

[adb968008]

Many a truth written there.  I fully concur with the reading of the situation regarding B1s, LMS Compounds and 02s.   I personally like the DJ weathered 71 but am not sure what a 76/77 is.  BR Standard 2-6-0 to me, and the 77 is ugly to boot....

 

Selling models at the right price for profit, as well as the size of production run and associated pricing is obviously the key to Hornby's recovery.  The unhappiness about the previous CEO's package is a very small issue really.  I recall the fire sale of the latest GW Kings about 12 months ago at £89-99-ish but they now seem to sell at £120-150.  Hornby will know how many such models, and trainsets and scenery and other brands of models are selling, but I do not.

 

I find myself edging towards a collector's mindset these days, the appeal of such as an L1 or B1 for £80 is quite strong, even if the market collapses they are still lovely to look at.  I think people once felt the same about Wrenn.

 

A nice thing from the AGM would be an idea from the CEO about future plans, strategies, and likely production schedules. 

 

I doubt there will be an announcement of production of this B1....  ex-GCR 

 

Edited pic, will remove if it offends.

 

5195_B1_GCR_portrait15_shed_1abcde_r1200.jpg

nice picture, but is that Didcot shed behind it ?

Class 76 .. Woodhead electric.

[robmcg]

nice picture, but is that Didcot shed behind it ?

Class 76 .. Woodhead electric.

 

Ah thankyou.    It's not Didcot so far as I recall, I think it was originally an LMS shed

 

speaking of cheap Compounds...

 

 

here is another model which can be had for £80 approx

 

 

Pic edited.  Ah the optimism of 1949!

 

I must not add edited pictures. I must not add edited pictures. I must not add edited pictures  :

[sidmouth]

probably not the right place however. I visited a model shop yesterday and poor proprietor was trying to contact customers who had pre-ordered Hornby items from them to tell them that the allocation had been reduced . somewhere in the region of £5k revenue lost as a result 

 

now I maybe a bit simple but preorders should tell Hornby what they can sell and surely the production run should satisfy that initial demand + a little for those who wait to see the model . 

[JSpencer]

probably not the right place however. I visited a model shop yesterday and poor proprietor was trying to contact customers who had pre-ordered Hornby items from them to tell them that the allocation had been reduced . somewhere in the region of £5k revenue lost as a result 

 

now I maybe a bit simple but preorders should tell Hornby what they can sell and surely the production run should satisfy that initial demand + a little for those who wait to see the model .

 

If true, then I still don,t understand why Hornby still get production figures wrong either over producing or not producing enough.

 

In most cases, enough time passes between when shops order and the production run begins. Other manufacturers don,t leave the shops short of stock.

 

And why did they take so long to inform the shops that the cannot meet the entire demand? It should have been known early on. If they fail to change this aspect of their culture, it will continue to be another source of revenue loss.

[Legend]

 

probably not the right place however. I visited a model shop yesterday and poor proprietor was trying to contact customers who had pre-ordered Hornby items from them to tell them that the allocation had been reduced . somewhere in the region of £5k revenue lost as a result 

 

now I maybe a bit simple but preorders should tell Hornby what they can sell and surely the production run should satisfy that initial demand + a little for those who wait to see the model . 

 

 

 

I'm sure Hornby would like to sell the maximum possible and certainly don't want lost revenue, particularly at this time.  My suspicion is that they just can't secure enough manufacturing capacity to fulfill the initial production run and so have to go back to their customers to say they can't supply all orders . Pure supposition on my part , but it certainly fits the circumstances .  That's the trouble with contracting out all your manufacturing, unless you have real production partners , you lose control.

[JSpencer]

I'm sure Hornby would like to sell the maximum possible and certainly don't want lost revenue, particularly at this time.  My suspicion is that they just can't secure enough manufacturing capacity to fulfill the initial production run and so have to go back to their customers to say they can't supply all orders . Pure supposition on my part , but it certainly fits the circumstances .  That's the trouble with contracting out all your manufacturing, unless you have real production partners , you lose control.

Whilst we have seen only one such statement at this time (we don,t know the model shop involved and it is comment from a customer of said shop), if it is true that the factory in question does not make full fill of the requested order then it firstly becomes a factory that lost interest in working with Hornby and one Hornby should loose interest in working with too.

However, it also means the tooling costs need to be recovered across a smaller run which means they would need to put the price up.

 

Again if true, I suspect the issue is more keeping the order book open for far too long, taking additional orders after production figures are set. Commercial people (sales) have - in my experience - far too much leeway and often end up overselling. I can think of a few cases where I work whereby they won a £5 million contract that cost us more to implement. Our new CEO wants the commercials bonus changed from total contract value to total margin made! But it's not an easy culture to change.

 

An issue with Hornby in the past seems to have been sales doing a big deal with a giant chain on items already sold out on pre orders to model shops elsewhere.

[Ian Hargrave]

 

probably not the right place however. I visited a model shop yesterday and poor proprietor was trying to contact customers who had pre-ordered Hornby items from them to tell them that the allocation had been reduced . somewhere in the region of £5k revenue lost as a result 

 

now I maybe a bit simple but preorders should tell Hornby what they can sell and surely the production run should satisfy that initial demand + a little for those who wait to see the model . 

 

 

A familiar occurrence that goes back a long way.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm sure Hornby would like to sell the maximum possible and certainly don't want lost revenue, particularly at this time.  My suspicion is that they just can't secure enough manufacturing capacity to fulfill the initial production run and so have to go back to their customers to say they can't supply all orders . Pure supposition on my part , but it certainly fits the circumstances .  That's the trouble with contracting out all your manufacturing, unless you have real production partners , you lose control.

 

I do wonder if it is rather more than that?  Hornby clearly has difficulties with its supply (manufacturing?) chain with numerous models delayed well beyond originally anticipated dates a taking us back towards the situation of a few years back (although I hope not that bad).  Equally they also have strong signs of past excessive orders, especially with Year2/Year 3 models but even extending to some poor Year 1 choices.  So maybe they have become excessively cautious or maybe they realised that some retailers were ordering more than they wanted in order to get what they really wanted if items were rationed, or maybe there are wider reasons extending to trust or convenience on the part of the factories?  However I do seriously wonder about the latter as factories in China are crying out for model railway work and some are even prepared to sink what comes down to considerable amounts of their own time (=money into the early stages of model development in order to actually secure the business and leave the UK 'manufacturer' to pay only at the back end of process when the production stage is reached.  

 

With a massive loan facility, which costs them whether they use it or not, Hornby are on the face of things not necessarily short of working capital at present which leaves me wondering if there is a deeper malaise involved somewhere - be it in relationships with the factories, management of process, or even ordering the right quantities in the first place?

[JSpencer]

I do wonder if it is rather more than that?  Hornby clearly has difficulties with its supply (manufacturing?) chain with numerous models delayed well beyond originally anticipated dates a taking us back towards the situation of a few years back (although I hope not that bad).  Equally they also have strong signs of past excessive orders, especially with Year2/Year 3 models but even extending to some poor Year 1 choices.  So maybe they have become excessively cautious or maybe they realised that some retailers were ordering more than they wanted in order to get what they really wanted if items were rationed, or maybe there are wider reasons extending to trust or convenience on the part of the factories?  However I do seriously wonder about the latter as factories in China are crying out for model railway work and some are even prepared to sink what comes down to considerable amounts of their own time (=money into the early stages of model development in order to actually secure the business and leave the UK 'manufacturer' to pay only at the back end of process when the production stage is reached.  [/

 

With a massive loan facility, which costs them whether they use it or not, Hornby are on the face of things not necessarily short of working capital at present which leaves me wondering if there is a deeper malaise involved somewhere - be it in relationships with the factories, management of process, or even ordering the right quantities in the first place?

We probably do not have full details though. One manufacturer shut up shop on the fly, taking with them a major source for supply of wheels. Many reputable manufacturers seem to want payment upfront before each part is delivered still too which could have been slowed down by Hornby's CFO. Then if you don,t meet things on time, they don,t produce on time.

It should be possible for Hornby, the UK number 1, to be big business in a few factories while keeping a foot in others.

 

Delays may have been down to the last acts of previous management and the new are having to cold start the engine on a very frosty day.

[blueeighties]

Many more pages of hot air and speculation. Whichever way you look at it, the spectacularly poor decision making processes and repeatedly poor product selections of the last few years have resulted in continual declining sales that the vast majority of trade predicted would happen. Without sales a business will cease to exist. Simples.

Edited November 3, 2018 by blueeighties

[Nimbus]

epeatedly poor product selections of the last few years have resulted in continual declining sales that the vast majority of trade predicted would happen.

 

Yet it's the last few years that have encouraged my spend with Hornby - locos and stock for my 'dry side" allegiances.

Still waiting for a roofbox Brush Type 2, as delivered minus yellow ends, though!

 

The Nim.

[classy52]

Many more pages of hot air and speculation. Whichever way you look at it, the spectacularly poor decision making processes and repeatedly poor product selections of the last few years have resulted in continual declining sales that the vast majority of trade predicted would happen. Without sales a business will cease to exist. Simples.

 

Poor decision making especially towards modern image modellers/collectors like myself, when I say modern image I mean locomotives or even coaches/wagons with liveries from 2010 to present (apart from their current fetish with GWR stuff but that alone won't keep them afloat).

The sad thing is I will only purchase 1 new product from Hornby in 2018 and it's not even a new tooled loco and that's the Colas Class 67 Charlotte, they couldn't even bring themselves to make both Colas 67's since they're a matched pair either both as single boxes or a special limited edition loco pack.

Also you look at all the missed opportunities for Hornby to re-tool their modern image loco's such as the Class 20, Class 37, Class 47, Class 59, Class 66, Class 73, Class 90 and Class 92 which have been or are now being done by the competition and where all my money will go and not to Hornby, that is a hefty market right there and I know they can't do everything but out of that list not a single one was re-tooled in the past 10 years by Hornby.

 

Other missed opportunities;

1. Class 60 - no re-run of DB Schenker Red which would have sold very well, instead they do liveries they can't shift e.g. Drax

2. Class 56 - DCR livery that will not shift that well which was predicted when announced.

3. HST Coaches - GWR well looked after but what about re-runs of Virgin East Coast, East Midlands Trains or even Grand Central which all sold out long ago and are now rare as hen's teeth and selling privately for stupid prices.

4. Network Rail Coaches/Vans/Utility - Based on past sales Hornby would make a killing on these either in limited run or large numbers.

 

- Class 67, I think Hornby have done these to death now in EWS/DB Schenker liveries.

- Since Hornby do KFA Intermodal wagons what about doing KFA Log wagons aimed at today's modellers/collectors which would compliment their outstanding Colas Class 56 & Class 60 loco's.

 

Hornby's main focus is on the Steam era but that alone won't save them thus they really need to turn their gaze properly to modern image and not treat that part of the market as an after thought and actually perform some proper due diligence and find out what we really want instead of producing stuff nobody wants as mentioned above and further damaging their bottom line.

Obviously I'm no expert in regards to Hornby's financial woes but these are just my thoughts on how they could improve their sales going forward but it just appears they have constantly dropped the ball when it comes to catering for the modern image market, personally all my money now goes to Bachmann, Dapol and in the future Hatton's.

Edited November 6, 2018 by classy52

[jjb1970]

The thing I find a bit disappointing is the change in momentum. The last senior leadership team had a mountain to climb in terms of turning around the financial performance of the company but in terms of product delivery, quality and communication they were getting an awful lot right and there was a real sense of positive momentum. Since the change and new brooms coming in their financial performance appears no nearer to turning around (their current credit line is with the equivalent of a lender of last resort) and yet product delivery and corporate communications seem to have nosedived with the result that all that positive momentum just seems to have gone. They have a terrific design team, the equivalent of an iconic brand in terms of this small niche and a lot of residual goodwill but they just don’t seem to be capitalising especially well on their positive attributes. I’m not an industry insider but I hear an awful lot of rumours and comments about the terms Chinese factories have been offering to secure work which indicates that manufacturing slots are there provided there aren’t bottlenecks in the supply of key components, however I don’t think such bottlenecks are responsible for Hornby’s production issues given that other producers are managing. I tend to agree with Station Master in that it just feels like there is a malaise at a certain level of their management and operations.

[JSpencer]

Many more pages of hot air and speculation. Whichever way you look at it, the spectacularly poor decision making processes and repeatedly poor product selections of the last few years have resulted in continual declining sales that the vast majority of trade predicted would happen. Without sales a business will cease to exist. Simples.

 

At the same time we are spectacularly complex and difficult market. Personally I feel Hornby have made many excellent choices over the past few years with me buying many of their products. But that proves my point on how complex and diverse this market is. They pleased me but did not please you.

 

Two areas they really need to sort out are:

1/ storage and transportation - they really roped themselves into a complex money loosing system there, with cir £5 Million + losses a year!

2/ Production - producing stuff in the right quantities to meet pre orders with a few (just a few) for spare and keeping that fairly close to schedule.

 

I suspect they are working intensely on both but the fruits have yet to appear.

 

They clearly stopped fire sales (even that was saturated!), but equally I see their pain trying to shift excess items from previous years. Some due to duplication wars with other makes, and some due to duplication wars with itself.

Admittedly, I have brought none of their locos this year, as everything I ordered has been postponed to Q1 2019 - and everything I ordered in 2017 actually came out in 2017 - but I did buy some civil engineer dutch wagons and a toad van instead!

[davidprentice]

For what it's worth, I have found this thread really interesting, and if I may throw my own thoughts into the mix:

 

I'm a modern image modeller, that buys the occasional 'steam' for a 'heritage line/railtour' purpose (and/or for the sake of having the modern equivalent of the steam engines I may have played with as a kid). I grew up in the 1990s with a small train set (Hornby HST, Hornby Class 110 DMU, Hornby Class 08, and an old Hornby Ivatt 2MT). I then left the hobby from c.14 until I returned to it in my mid-20s for a year or two (when the super detailed Class 08, Class 60, and new HST blew my mind - and when I also was amazed to find 'Bachmann', 'Heljan' etc.), and then again a decade on I have returned to find yet more models and manufacturers (Bachmann 70, Dapol 68, Hattons 66, etc.).

 

What I do find incredible is how little Hornby appear to have done in terms of keeping up with modern image. I think a critical error on their part was not, sooner, getting clearer on having a 'budget' (Railroad) series (basically some or all the old moulds), and then a 'premium' series (all the new toolings). They should have been aiming to put out 1-2 of their existing (dated) series each year - and amongst these new toolings they should absolutely have produced the definitive Mk3 and Mk4 coaches. It would mean that, returning to the hobby, I would have bought much more Hornby than I have. It might also have helped them make more of their HST tooling - and given them good reason to sort out their 225 tooling.

 

I can count 40 boxes (locomotives and rolling stock) on the shelf. These are the purchases I have made in the last 6 months. Only 4 of the boxes are Hornby (a couple Mk3 DVTs, a Class 60, and an HST). The remainder are about evenly split between Bachmann and Dapol, with a small but growing selection of Oxford Rail Mk3as too.

 

I wish Hornby well, but unless something changes, I really don't see them getting much more than 10% of my model rail wallet... where once they had 90%...

Edited November 6, 2018 by davidprentice

[jjb1970]

Yet Hornby have obviously invested serious money to develop their class 800 model which is just about as modern image as you can get.

[Clearwater]

Yet Hornby have obviously invested serious money to develop their class 800 model which is just about as modern image as you can get.

Perhaps worth noting that the HST model was introduced in 1980 or so. If the 800s are going to be almost as ubitiquous as the HST has been over the next 35/40 years, then Hornby should get a lot of value out of that tooling.

 

They also tried the same trick with the APT. Perhaps uniquely, Hornby made a more successful model than the prototype!

[davidprentice]

Yet Hornby have obviously invested serious money to develop their class 800 model which is just about as modern image as you can get.

 

A fair point, but I don't actually think it's enough...

 

I don't know what the market research would say, but my hypothesis is that the price of 'new' models today is such that it's basically adults who are the market. And, frankly, if I had children, as much as I love model trains, I would certainly not buy a £400 Class 800 for my son or daughter to 'play' with. I'd opt for a Railroad spec and price.

 

And, my other hypothesis is that adults into model railways (who do want detail and have the £££s to spend for a quality product) are generally slightly nostalgic for the past. This means that, the HST or IC225 is likely the equivalent today in 2018, of the Flying Scotsman or Mallard 20-30-40+ years ago.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Hornby choosing to do the Class 800 might ensure Bachmann or one of their other competitors can't do it, they aren't actually adding as much volume (and margin) as they would if they had made a strategic decision to invest in HST/Mk3 or IC225/Mk4 at almost any point in the last decade. In an ideal scenario, of course, they would have nailed the HST/Mk3, IC225/Mk4 over the last decade and put out the Class 800 as they have done. Instead they seem only to have managed the Class 800. It will stop competitors from doing a Class 800, but the HST/Mk3 and IC225/Mk4 both feel like products that another competitor could go to town on... Just imagine if Oxford had really nailed the Mk3... and perhaps Dapol had knocked out an even better OO gauge HST with a wider range of liveries... and Bachmann got into the IC225/Mk4 game...

[JSpencer]

A fair point, but I don't actually think it's enough...

 

I don't know what the market research would say, but my hypothesis is that the price of 'new' models today is such that it's basically adults who are the market. And, frankly, if I had children, as much as I love model trains, I would certainly not buy a £400 Class 800 for my son or daughter to 'play' with. I'd opt for a Railroad spec and price.

..

 

There are 2 questions you pose here.

 

One is that Hornby does not do enough bang up to date modern stuff. One problem they face here is licensing. Hornby bidded and lost, for the class 68 which Dapol won. Such license adds to the final fee of the model. Now some companies seem to be more free about sharing these out (Virgin springs to mind) while others want their lump of flesh. Gone are the days when all railway companies saw model trains as a mini advert for their railway. The license would last for a period, so an exclusive train or loco class limited to just one real world user might not give a return over the long run.

That said there are classes which span the last days of BR and can still be found now (though maybe in fewer numbers) and I agree the class 90/91/92 Mk3 and Mk4 should have been retooled to modern spec years ago. And they lost some major classes to other manufacturers - though maybe the Lima acquirement torpedoed that.

 

The other is trains for kids. Some railroad items like Scotsman etc will prove popular but things like a class 42 won't appeal to kids. Maybe they could tart the 395 up as the class 800 for the kids market though?

[blueeighties]

They pleased me but did not please you.

 

Not just me, the vast majority of my customer base, and many other too.

[County of Yorkshire]

At the same time we are spectacularly complex and difficult market. Personally I feel Hornby have made many excellent choices over the past few years with me buying many of their products. But that proves my point on how complex and diverse this market is. They pleased me but did not please you.

 

Two areas they really need to sort out are:

1/ storage and transportation - they really roped themselves into a complex money loosing system there, with cir £5 Million + losses a year!

2/ Production - producing stuff in the right quantities to meet pre orders with a few (just a few) for spare and keeping that fairly close to schedule.

 

I suspect they are working intensely on both but the fruits have yet to appear.

 

They clearly stopped fire sales (even that was saturated!), but equally I see their pain trying to shift excess items from previous years. Some due to duplication wars with other makes, and some due to duplication wars with itself.

Admittedly, I have brought none of their locos this year, as everything I ordered has been postponed to Q1 2019 - and everything I ordered in 2017 actually came out in 2017 - but I did buy some civil engineer dutch wagons and a toad van instead!

 

Really?

 

CoY

[JSpencer]

Really?

 

CoY

 

That is not Hornby's doing but Hattons. Hornby cannot stop Hattons from deciding to do their own promotions!

 

When I worked at the Signalbox in the 90s, it could happen from time to time that we would sell some items at a slight loss just to make space (I brought myself an A4 Sir Walther Wigham for £42). But this was our doing and not Hornby's. It did serve to promote the shop however. Which is exactly what Hatton's are doing. Getting rid of excess stock and promoting their shop. And its effective. 

 

What Hornby are not doing anymore is selling a load of stock at full price to model shops and then 3-6 months later, selling remaining warehouse stock a lot cheaper than model shops paid for it, especially when model shops had not yet had time to shift it. This caused a lot of damage in that shops ordered a lot less from Hornby from fear of having money tied up in stock with the supplier of the same stock undercutting them selling directly to their customers.

Edited November 7, 2018 by JSpencer

[County of Yorkshire]

That is not Hornby's doing but Hattons. Hornby cannot stop Hattons from deciding to do their own promotions!

 

When I worked at the Signalbox in the 90s, it could happen from time to time that we would sell some items at a slight loss just to make space (I brought myself an A4 Sir Walther Wigham for £42). But this was our doing and not Hornby's. It did serve to promote the shop however. Which is exactly what Hatton's are doing. Getting rid of excess stock and promoting their shop. And its effective. 

 

What Hornby are not doing anymore is selling a load of stock at full price to model shops and then 3-6 months later, selling remaining warehouse stock a lot cheaper than model shops paid for it, especially when model shops had not yet had time to shift it. This caused a lot of damage in that shops ordered a lot less from Hornby from fear of having money tied up in stock with the supplier of the same stock undercutting them selling directly to their customers.

 

 

How do we know that a lot of the Hornby stock in Hattons' 'sale of the century' was not sold to them by Hornby in last couple of months? Given the sheer breadth and volume of Hornby stock in this sale I'd be astonished if it all originated from Hattons' existing stockholdings alone. 

 

Appreciate Hornby can't control a retailer's use and handling of discounting and sales, but I would bet a small Mars bar that some (wholesale discounted) stock made its way from Sandwich to Widnes sometime in the last couple of months, and therefore it's a Hornby fire sale by proxy. The new Hornby management boldly declared that they were putting an end to deep discounting and self-managed fire sales but a release valve will have been factored into their plans somewhere and I that's somewhere South East of the Wirral. 

 

Whatever, some of the prices in the Hattons sale will distort the market. What chance of the small local model shop shifting their K1s still sat on the shelf at 15% less than RRP when you can get one from Hattons for £70?

 

CoY

[The Stationmaster]

How do we know that a lot of the Hornby stock in Hattons' 'sale of the century' was not sold to them by Hornby in last couple of months? Given the sheer breadth and volume of Hornby stock in this sale I'd be astonished if it all originated from Hattons' existing stockholdings alone. 

 

Appreciate Hornby can't control a retailer's use and handling of discounting and sales, but I would bet a small Mars bar that some (wholesale discounted) stock made its way from Sandwich to Widnes sometime in the last couple of months, and therefore it's a Hornby fire sale by proxy. The new Hornby management boldly declared that they were putting an end to deep discounting and self-managed fire sales but a release valve will have been factored into their plans somewhere and I that's somewhere South East of the Wirral. 

 

Whatever, some of the prices in the Hattons sale will distort the market. What chance of the small local model shop shifting their K1s still sat on the shelf at 15% less than RRP when you can get one from Hattons for £70?

 

CoY

 

First question is how do you know that it is stock Hornby recently sold off cheap specifically to Hattions and no one else?  Hornby say they don't do that any more and indications from the trade would appear to confirm that.  And what about the Bachmann items - which in sheer number of items which have a motor (locos and DMUs & EMUs etc) form a greater part of the list than items from Hornby, and that's before we count Dapol and Heljan branded items.   

 

Simple conclusion is that Hattons - for whatever reason - are having a sale with in some instances some very substantial reductions which are taking items way below likely cost price.  Overall this seems to indicate they are either looking to clear stock that might have been hanging around for a while or they want to get some money in or a combination of the two things.  Boxes gathering dust on their shelves are costing them money so better to get shot of them cheap than keep clogging up the shelves.    And with one or two exceptions from a previous Hornby fire sale I see more indications in some of the ranges other than Hornby that prices have been well and truly shredded (almost by 50% on one Bachmann item) in order clear what are obviously very slow moving stocks (with many showing more than 10 in stock).

 

I agree absolutely that their prices will distort the market, as was often the case in the past with Hattons.  Maybe they are looking to get back to their 'pile it high sell it' cheap business model or perhaps they're looking to promote their position in the retail marketplace?  But equally it could be that they are simply looking to clear stuff out and are prepared to sell, for whatever reason, at what in some cases looks like a loss.  Or have Heljan, Bachmann, and DJM, also been having fire sales (Dapol did have one of course some while back)?