WWI Scottish Naval Bases - ministry wagons and loco liveries

[doilum]

can't see any other railways on old maps - only the line going north from InvergordonWhereabouts did you stay, near the ferry jetty or further up the bay?

The jetty was at Balnapaling and perhaps served also the ferry to Cromarty. The Google image shows a jetty but this may be a new one related to the oil industry. We stayed in a cottage on a farm belonging ( I was told) to the author Eric Linclater. The white painted hotel seems to have survived. What made an impression at the time were a couple of cars. A beat up Ford Pop based kit car (possibly a Rochdale Riviera) and a two door Cortina 1600E sporting Lotus badges.

The building at the land end of the jetty was distinctly military and we were told that munitions were loaded onto tenders serving the main fleet. It would be great if someone could confirm or correct.

[DOCJACOB]

The other point I'd forgotten, but this thread reminded me is the mines were apparently delivered in kit form to Kyle of Lochalsh and then shipped over to Invergordon for assembly and deployment.

 

One article specifies ex SECR wagons were used.

 

Can only assume Dingwall would have been buzzing with this and all coal and troop/naval staff workings to contend with?

 

Images appear to show usual Fife based culprits for coal workings.

[Nearholmer]

Somewhere, I have a little book, locally published I think, about all the railways associated with the barrage, one of a series that also covers Scottish island railways, down to the tiniest sprigs. When I find it, I will post details.

 

Edit: can’t find it, but I think it’s in the same series as this one.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

DocJacob, yes, the Invergordon mines came across the Atlantic in parts to Kyle and were then shipped to the Cromarty assembly base by rail. The Inverness mine parts were landed at the south west end of the Great Glen and shipped up the Caley Canal in lighters. Even the assembly sheds (shown in my aerial view) came from the US in kits of disassembled parts.

 

Can anyone help identify the 0-4-0 ST shown in my photo above with the HBR loco? Its bugging me as to what it is.

[Nearholmer]

Try posting in the industrial locos thread; someone there will know it’s inside leg measurement from memory.

 

The crank bosses look distinctive. Manning Wardle? Their H Class? But, if so, a front handrail missing.

 

The cab footstep/bracket is very unusual - a definite ‘spotting feature’, but I’m not so good on SG locos, so cant be sure what it tells us.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Nearholmer

[billbedford]

He included the following photographs:

 

1) M /|\ M (Ministry of Munitions?) wagon for which confirmation of livery is sought. Is the wagon number 840? Who might have built this pattern of wagon?

John Bower 1918 N Sea Mine Baggage 02.jpg

 

Probably Highland, but could also be NB or CR.

 

2) A line of 5- and 4-plank wagons that include an NB 4-plank and an HR 4-plank. Any further identification of other wagons in this photograph would be greatly appreciated, as well as liveries. The NB wagon is presumably mid-grey and the HR wagon dark brick red, both marked in white.

John Bower 1918 N Sea Mine Barrage 01.jpg

 

The second wagon in the righthand siding is an (ex) highland mineral, 

 

3) Part of Dalmore base showing the A1X Terrier. Does anyone know what livery these carried in military/naval dockyard service?

US Naval base Dalmore Scotland Terrier A1X 01.jpg

 

You are assuming that the MoM repainted requisitioned loco before they were put into service

  

 

5) North British box van No.32553, presumably of 10 tons load. I am assuming livery details are mid-grey and white markings. Can anyone please confirm?

John Bower 1918 N Sea Mine Baggage 03.jpg

correct

 

6) Another Ministry wagon, 3-plank fixed side No.449. Am I right in thinking this would be light- to mid-grey with markings in white? Who might the builder have been?

John Bower 1918 N Sea Mine Baggage 04.jpg

 

see 1)

 

In all likelihood this wagon was at least 50 years old when the photo was taken. Note the angled crown plates.

 

As far as I'm aware the HR olive green livery was used on non-passenger coaching stock. Unfitted wagons would have carried the dark brick red livery. Is this correct?

 

 

Yes

[billbedford]

Thank you very much for your info on Highland wagons, but sadly I have misled everyone. My apologies! The initials on that wagon are not "HR" but "MR" (!) I came across a better quality version of the second image while Googling last night. This is curious because Mr Bowers says it is a personal photo of his grandfathers yet I found a copy on the US site "www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/" (nhhc stands for Naval History and Heritage Command). Perhaps his grandfather submitted the photo to them many years ago? As you can see the MR markings are clear on this version.

 

NH 89504.jpeg

 

The wagon carrying the large steel boxes (mine barrage floats?) in the third row also has an "M" visible. These are probably flat wagons of some kind as you can see that further down the siding the boxes are stacked three high. Unlikely in open wagons, unless they are very low-sided ones (actually the slant of the ones stacked 3 high might suggest they are lashed into 1- or 2-plankers?)

 

 

The steel boxes are pontoons, for building floating structures in harbours. They seem to be longer than the wagons in the foreground so are probably mounted on implement wagons. The few wagons were the load is sloping are likely to be shorter than the others so one end of the pontoon rests on the raised end of the wagon. The "M" is odd. It is in the wrong place relative to the load so this wagon, at least, was probably branded 'MoM'.

[Martin S-C]

Thanks Bill, those replies are very helpful.

 

There's been discussion that locos requisitioned by the War Dept were not repainted. Is this a probably fair conclusion? Another poster suggested Admiralty grey so I'm still open to any more input on this one.

[bécasse]

The Terriers are likely to have been in Marsh umber livery (which was a pretty plain brown) by the time that the Great War erupted. I too think it unlikely that they would have been repainted beyond having their numbers and L B S C tank side lettering painted out (which could well have been done at Brighton before they were handed over).

[billbedford]

Thanks Bill, those replies are very helpful.

 

There's been discussion that locos requisitioned by the War Dept were not repainted. Is this a probably fair conclusion? Another poster suggested Admiralty grey so I'm still open to any more input on this one.

 

 

I think the answer is if the locos were shopped before being transferred then they were repainted. This was certainly true of locos that went to the RoD in France. However, these locos were sold or requisitioned so they were not likely to have shopped and repainted before transfer. Of course, some may have been in such a bad condition that they needed shopping after transfer and no doubt they received the statuary coat of pusser's grey.

[keefer]

The jetty was at Balnapaling and perhaps served also the ferry to Cromarty. The Google image shows a jetty but this may be a new one related to the oil industry. We stayed in a cottage on a farm belonging ( I was told) to the author Eric Linclater. The white painted hotel seems to have survived. What made an impression at the time were a couple of cars. A beat up Ford Pop based kit car (possibly a Rochdale Riviera) and a two door Cortina 1600E sporting Lotus badges.

The building at the land end of the jetty was distinctly military and we were told that munitions were loaded onto tenders serving the main fleet. It would be great if someone could confirm or correct.

Is this the jetty? https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165230

 

Mentions the tramway to main repair shed, which must be this: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165526

View of rails into shed: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165567

 

there are images on p.4 & 5 of the Canmore search for Nigg, including a concrete magazine

https://canmore.org.uk/search/image?SIMPLE_KEYWORD=nigg&images_page=4

[John Bower]

M

 

Thanks for posting Ross and those are great pics of a really attractive model. I agree, I don't really see the Admiralty wasting time repainting engines and stock. They needed the work doing urgently and it would have been hard, relentless work so any livery would have become worn quite quickly.

 

The cloth sheet over the cab side of the Dalmore engine I imagine was purely because of the climate and/or latitude. Being on the coast near Cromarty winds could have shrieked down that estuary so some protection was needed by the crews. Alternatively, being so far north and the sun in autumn and spring being lower in the sky the sheet may have been a crude "sun visor".

 

An enlargement shows the tail lamps mounted on long stalks. Gives a better view of the spark arrestor as well. Good luck soldering that together in 4mm!

 

NH 124013-crop.jpg

 

(EDIT: Image added)

Martin, this as well as the larger image earlier in the thread is taken next to the engine shed (large building behind Terrier).  According to the map, it was new construction (supervised by the Admiralty from Nov. '17 to Feb. '18) rather large and had two tracks into it.  I assume that the building was used to service multiple locomotives and the base's many self propelled rail cranes.  John Bower USA

[Martin S-C]

Good to see that the Terriers were carrying proper route code discs!

Maybe a couple were left in each loco and the American personnel stuck them on as they were useful in bad light!

[doilum]

Is this the jetty? https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165230Mentions the tramway to main repair shed, which must be this: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165526View of rails into shed: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1165567there are images on p.4 & 5 of the Canmore search for Nigg, including a concrete magazinehttps://canmore.org.uk/search/image?SIMPLE_KEYWORD=nigg&images_page=4

Thanks so much!!!

Exactly as I remember from 1971, although I'm not sure about the security gates. Whilst we would have easily climbed round them, I doubt if we would have obtained parental approval for our fishing trips.

Assuming this was a simple internal line, does anyone have any idea of what was repaired in the shed?

As a slight aside, there is the interesting question of our own memories after nearly fifty years. It is reassuring when occasionally it is proved spot on.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Thanks so much!!!

Exactly as I remember from 1971, although I'm not sure about the security gates. Whilst we would have easily climbed round them, I doubt if we would have obtained parental approval for our fishing trips.

Assuming this was a simple internal line, does anyone have any idea of what was repaired in the shed?

As a slight aside, there is the interesting question of our own memories after nearly fifty years. It is reassuring when occasionally it is proved spot on.

 

I can assure that the jetty is still there........well it was on Sunday when I last looked across the firth at it! 

 

It is properly tumbledown now and is marked as being a dangerous structure (as is a similar one on the south side of the firth in Cromarty).  Whilst it is a summer only ferry (so you'll have to wait until June for it to run again), the ferry still runs.  It is a little landing craft that has room for two cars and you have to reverse off when you get to the far side - bet that hasn't changed since 1971 too!

[uax6]

 

The two full brakes in the above picture I am 99% certain are NOT HR vehicles. My reasoning is this: the duckets are too wide, and the headstocks stick out over the solebars, HR underframes had heavy steel corner braces that fitted behind the buffers and turned the corner to the solebar face.

Presumably these have been requisitioned from elsewhere and brought north. Are they LBSCR?

 

Andy G

[doilum]

I can assure that the jetty is still there........well it was on Sunday when I last looked across the firth at it! 

 

It is properly tumbledown now and is marked as being a dangerous structure (as is a similar one on the south side of the firth in Cromarty).  Whilst it is a summer only ferry (so you'll have to wait until June for it to run again), the ferry still runs.  It is a little landing craft that has room for two cars and you have to reverse off when you get to the far side - bet that hasn't changed since 1971 too!

I remember that there were warning signs back then but apart from an odd missing plank it was fairly sound. The ferry wasn't running in 1971. On their wedding anniversary, I took charge of younger siblings to give them a day to themselves. They chose to drive to Cromarty and wave to us!this must have been a round trip of around 100 miles. Perhaps the ferry was reinstated when the oil rigs were built.

[Nick Holliday]

Fascinating pictures.According to an old copy of Industrial Railway Society (Scotland) 6 locomotives were at Admiralty Invergordon Dockyard by 1/18Only 3 mentioned and identified ex LBSCR 681, 638 and 683 which were sold to Shropshire and Montgomery Railway.681 became Hecate 8/21638 became Dido 11/23683 became Daphne 11/23The Colonel Stephens website has a bit on the Terriers and alleges Hecate was Marsh Umber and Dido was Black. It further says photographic evidence suggests they were in repainted in sort of sage green at some point.No idea where/what the photographic evidence is??

Bradley (RCTS) tells a slightly different story. A1 638 and A1X 681 were sent to Invergordon in February and January 1918 respectively.

A1 637, 681 and 683 went to Inverness at the same time. (I'm always amazed how late in the war these initiatives got going.) On 17th November 1921 638 & 683 were seen in Brighton livery, presumably umber, in store at the Government Surplus Material Department at Dalmuir, Dumbartonshire, and sold in November 1923 to the S and M for £470 each, where they became Dido and Daphne. 681 had already been bought and was on the S&M by July 1921.

Most of the photos here so far show the A1X 681, although the lowest photo in the montage on post #14 I think is of 638.

Just an aside, but during the second world conflict, seven of Stroudley's larger D1 0-4-2 tanks were also sent to Scotland, mostly working on LMS lines, reaching as far North as Wick, a long way from home, but a little closer to their spiritual home in Inverness, perhaps.

[Nick Holliday]

 

The two full brakes in the above picture I am 99% certain are NOT HR vehicles. My reasoning is this: the duckets are too wide, and the headstocks stick out over the solebars, HR underframes had heavy steel corner braces that fitted behind the buffers and turned the corner to the solebar face.

Presumably these have been requisitioned from elsewhere and brought north. Are they LBSCR?

 

Andy G

Not LBSCR brakes. None of them had drop lights in the double doors, instead having single doors with Windows either side of the ducket.

A possibility is the Diagram 17 full brakes of the Caledonian, built over a number of years, with minor variations, but the basic side view layout is similar to these.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Nick Holliday

[Martin S-C]

Note the "M" marking on the undercurve of the ducket.

[Martin S-C]

John Bower, I asked more about the 0-4-0 industrial loco here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/138303-identifying-a-wwi-period-0-4-0-loco/&do=findComment&comment=3330478

[MarcD]

I don't sure if this has been mentioned before in this thread but the RN/USN ran the mines from the Kyle in SECR 7 plank opens as well as W^D 7 planks.

Marc

[billbedford]

By the end of 1917 all open wagons were common user so anything could turn up on these trains

[Ben Alder]

This pic appeared on an Inverness FB page, marked open source, presumably from the Northern Barrage  book, showing sidings at Merkinch in 1918.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Ben Alder

[MarcD]

Interesting photo the wagons look like a mix of NER C2 4 planks and NBR 3 plan fixed side wagons all in W^D liveries.

 

Marc