Fort William Sleeper

[sulzer71]

Good Afternoon all

 

I'm about to embark on building a layout themed mainly on the Fort William sleeper train from the early 80's to around 2006 , it's not going to be a complex layout and the main focal point will be single track running through countryside , no station , no yards apart from a fiddle yard off the main scene

 

I've been collecting loco's and stock since around February and have many class 37's in various liveries plus some 20's & 27's and a small amount of rolling stock and i have a few questions listed below , i have been doing a lot of research and want to make my trains as prototypical as possible really and not been able to find certain things out so thought i would ask the folks here 

 

Early 80's - What other stock would be included in the sleeper apart from Blue/Grey Mk3 sleepers and are RTR versions available (i already have the sleepers) , also what other passenger trains would traverse the route and what loco's/coaches would make the formations up?

Mid 80's-90's - Pretty much as above but obviously with 37/4's and now into the intercity livery era , same again , apart from the sleepers what other coaches were in the consist and what's available RTR?

90's - Pretty much as above

2000-2006 - Not sure when the Caledonian purple livery was introduced but i don't believe the MK2 coaches that were in the consist are available in RTR form so what coaches would be the best for conversion? (i already have some sleeper coaches in the purple swoosh livery and one in the later first caledonian purple which i have seen in the consist hauled by 37's before the 67's took over)

 

I would also be interested in formations of freight workings over the route (lets for instance say the stretch of line i'm modelling is somewhere like between Crianlarich and Tyndrum)  

 

I have a selection of MK1/MK2 stock from various manufacturers in blue/grey and intercity liveries and types so looking how i could utilise these

 

Looking forward to your input

 

Dave

 

 

[rob D2]

Mid 90s

The sleeper was normally four coaches - a mk2 day coach, a mk1BG , 2 sleeper coaches. Pulled by transrail, regional railways, EWS class 37....

 

Freight ...there have been lots of topics on this. I’d suggest search Flickr for relevant years and search in general for corpach paper mill and Alcon smelter as they were the two primary sources of freight at fort William

[sulzer71]

Mid 90s

The sleeper was normally four coaches - a mk2 day coach, a mk1BG , 2 sleeper coaches. Pulled by transrail, regional railways, EWS class 37....

 

Freight ...there have been lots of topics on this. I’d suggest search Flickr for relevant years and search in general for corpach paper mill and Alcon smelter as they were the two primary sources of freight at fort William

 

Thanks , what exactly would the day coach be? eg type? luckily i have an IC liveried MK1 BG and have Transrail/EWS 37's with a couple of Regional Railways class 37 bodyshells and chassis to build 2 Loco's that will need numbering as appropriate scottish ones 

[keefer]

the day coach was a mk2f RLO lounge coach, not sure when they were introduced though.

 

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock/Mk2F-RLO-6700-6708-AN1F/

 

Can't remember if they had IC Executive livery first, or just Swallow before Caledonian Sleeper blue.

They had 26 loose seats arranged around small tables with a buffet/bar counter at one end (where the 2 external windows were plated over).

 

https://www.pan3sixty.co.uk/blog/portfolio/caledonian-sleeper-virtual-tour/ (Presumably from IC livery days)

http://www.roberthampton.me.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/lounge.jpeg (Cal. Sleeper)

Edited October 18, 2018 by keefer

[wirey33]

Get hold of the "Rail Express - Train Formations Handbook"; available in WH Smiths etc.

 

They have a section in there specifically dealing with West Highland Freight.

 

https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5542/bookazine-rail-express-train-formations-handbook

[sulzer71]

Get hold of the "Rail Express - Train Formations Handbook"; available in WH Smiths etc.

 

They have a section in there specifically dealing with West Highland Freight.

 

https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/product/5542/bookazine-rail-express-train-formations-handbook

wirey33 thanks , i do already have the book

[Bomag]

Early 80's would still be Mk1 sleepers.

In 1984/85 there was usually one of the dual braked BSOTs (9015, 9016), an air braked TSO, an air con Mk2 (possibly a declassified Mk2F FO), the sleepers, an ETHEL and a 37/0.

I did not see it much after then but the stock added at QS switched to air braked Mk2s

Once they standardised on RLOs, BUO on the main sets the added coaches were at some point a Mk2E FO(T) and then a MK2 RFB. As there are fewer RLOs than BUOs they don't seem to use them to FW, I have only ever seen 1211 or 1220 (RFBs) when passing through.

 

Electra Graphics do both the Mk2s, I even got a RTR conversion from them at an exhibition.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Bomag

[jamespetts]

I travelled on the West Highland Sleeper in 1995 - the locomotive (in the highlands) was this:

 

Class 37 at Mallaig by James Petts, on Flickr

 

which had just hauled a mark 1 rake in lieu of a booked steam engine on a special train on the Mallaig to Fort William line.

 

The carriages were a rake of mk. 3 sleepers with a first class air conditioned mk. 2 day carriage, all in Intercity swallow livery.

[sulzer71]

Early 80's would still be Mk1 sleepers.

In 1984/85 there was usually one of the dual braked BSOTs (9015, 9016), an air braked TSO, an air con Mk2 (possibly a declassified Mk2F FO), the sleepers, an ETHEL and a 37/0.

I did not see it much after then but the stock added at QS switched to air braked Mk2s

Once they standardised on RLOs, BUO on the main sets the added coaches were at some point a Mk2E FO(T) and then a MK2 RFB. As there are fewer RLOs than BUOs they don't seem to use them to FW, I have only ever seen 1211 or 1220 (RFBs) when passing through.

 

Electra Graphics do both the Mk2s, I even got a RTR conversion from them at an exhibition.

Would you know when the MK3 sleepers were introduced? i don't plan on modelling earlier than 84 tbh , i have the MMRG ltd edition 37114 which i intend to run with an ETHEL when Heljan release theirs next year

[The Pilotman]

Would you know when the MK3 sleepers were introduced? i don't plan on modelling earlier than 84 tbh , i have the MMRG ltd edition 37114 which i intend to run with an ETHEL when Heljan release theirs next year

I reckon 1983. That’s the year that the ETHELs were converted.

[EddieK]

Early 80's would still be Mk1 sleepers.

In 1984/85 there was usually one of the dual braked BSOTs (9015, 9016), an air braked TSO, an air con Mk2 (possibly a declassified Mk2F FO), the sleepers, an ETHEL and a 37/0.

I did not see it much after then but the stock added at QS switched to air braked Mk2s

Once they standardised on RLOs, BUO on the main sets the added coaches were at some point a Mk2E FO(T) and then a MK2 RFB. As there are fewer RLOs than BUOs they don't seem to use them to FW, I have only ever seen 1211 or 1220 (RFBs) when passing through.

 

Electra Graphics do both the Mk2s, I even got a RTR conversion from them at an exhibition.

 

The Mark 2e FO(T) vehicles were introduced in October 1992. I can speak with a degree of certainty on this as I was responsible for getting them converted from FO.

The vehicle numbers (from memory - check coaching stock books of the time...) were 3251, 3259 and 3261. They had previously been used on the Norwich line (I think) and had a high level jumper cable on the vehicle ends. This was to supply 240 Volts to an adjacent Mark 1 RBR to power the sandwich chiller and the microwave. To make the trolley bay, we took out two facing single seats next to the luggage stack at one end, plus the table. Some wooden baulks made a trolley restraint bay, along with some seatbelt-type straps obtained from Bounds Green. When we found that there was no existing power socket, we had to remove the vestibule ceiling and tap into the back of the external power socket, and run a new feed to the trolley bay.

We did not do too badly, considering we had a week and a half to get two vehicles converted, with a third following shortly after.

 

As I had assisted my colleague, the Overnight Services Manager for IC in extracting himself from deep, deep doodoo, my reward was a free ride on the sleeper from Euston to Edinburgh for me, my girlfriend (now wife) and my Land Rover. That saved a long journey as we were off to the Outer Hebrides  and the Far North of Scotland for a camping holiday (in October!). I knew that the third FO(T) had been converted as I saw it when we called-in at Fort William Station at the end of our fortnight.

[sulzer71]

The Mark 2e FO(T) vehicles were introduced in October 1992. I can speak with a degree of certainty on this as I was responsible for getting them converted from FO.

The vehicle numbers (from memory - check coaching stock books of the time...) were 3251, 3259 and 3261. They had previously been used on the Norwich line (I think) and had a high level jumper cable on the vehicle ends. This was to supply 240 Volts to an adjacent Mark 1 RBR to power the sandwich chiller and the microwave. To make the trolley bay, we took out two facing single seats next to the luggage stack at one end, plus the table. Some wooden baulks made a trolley restraint bay, along with some seatbelt-type straps obtained from Bounds Green. When we found that there was no existing power socket, we had to remove the vestibule ceiling and tap into the back of the external power socket, and run a new feed to the trolley bay.

We did not do too badly, considering we had a week and a half to get two vehicles converted, with a third following shortly after.

 

As I had assisted my colleague, the Overnight Services Manager for IC in extracting himself from deep, deep doodoo, my reward was a free ride on the sleeper from Euston to Edinburgh for me, my girlfriend (now wife) and my Land Rover. That saved a long journey as we were off to the Outer Hebrides  and the Far North of Scotland for a camping holiday (in October!). I knew that the third FO(T) had been converted as I saw it when we called-in at Fort William Station at the end of our fortnight.

interesting , i'm guessing this would be ideal for a conversion then? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-OO-GAUGE-R4614A-BR-BLUE-GREY-INTERCITY-MK2E-OPEN-FIRST-W3231-U23/201698779994

[EddieK]

interesting , i'm guessing this would be ideal for a conversion then? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-OO-GAUGE-R4614A-BR-BLUE-GREY-INTERCITY-MK2E-OPEN-FIRST-W3231-U23/201698779994

Yes, though by 1992 the FOs were in Inter City livery. Cannot recall whether swallow-style or not. There were no outward signs that the trolley conversion had taken place, other than the trolley visible through the window.

[sulzer71]

Yes, though by 1992 the FOs were in Inter City livery. Cannot recall whether swallow-style or not. There were no outward signs that the trolley conversion had taken place, other than the trolley visible through the window.

Brilliant , just realised i have Hornby R4611A which is W3245 so i'll look into what livery it wore during the 90's period and have that repainted/renumbered to suit

[Bomag]

I reckon 1983. That’s the year that the ETHELs were converted.

 

The last Mk1 Sleepers were the internal Scottish services in may 1984. The FW sleepers would probably have gone over at the summer or winter timetable change in 1983. The FW services were the last outpost of vac braked steam heated 90 mph stock; looking at allocations apart from the BSOT they had to get something air braked and ETH from soemwhere else. 

[Steven B]

In 1985 the Fort William portion of the Euston to Inverness & Fort William sleeper was:

 

Mk2d BSO Mk2s TSO Mk3 SLEP Mk3 SLE

 

However, Non-aircon Mk2s & Mk1s were also used:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/7597262048

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/photo2L/37111+Ethel2_Corrour.jpg

 

The formation listed above could be added to -

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/27800/mugridge-peter.pdf

show the train with Mk1 BSK SK BSK three extra coaches added (a Mk2 BSO, Mk1 TSO and a MK1 BSOT from back to front - corrected following Bomag's post)

 

1997s had Mk3 SLE + Mk3 SLEP + Mk2d FO + Mk2d FO + Mk1 BG

http://www.hondawanderer.com/37401_County_March_Summit_1997.htm

 

Steven B.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Steven B

[Bomag]

In 1985 the Fort William portion of the Euston to Inverness & Fort William sleeper was:

 

 

The formation listed above could be added to -

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/27800/mugridge-peter.pdf

show the train with Mk1 BSK SK BSK added

Steven B.

 

For the avoidance of doubt the three extra coaches are a Mk2 BSO, Mk1 TSO and a MK1 BSOT from back to front.

[Edge]

A bit of a long shot, but did anyone catch the Caledonian Sleeper leaving Fort William on the evening of May 16th? I was on the train and a video memento would be nice :)