Can you run a long train into small platform ?

[PaulRhB]

Well with the door locks outside they figured people would notice there was no platform when they leant out to open the door. All that has happened with selective doors is it’s now up to the guard to check

Good example of common sense continuing.

[robert17649]

Ivybridge station was opened in 1994 and has been served by HST's since then. These only have 6 of the 8 coaches platformed.  

this is true of many of the stations on the s/west line to Penzance, although these are mostly older stations. The additional notable feature is the death leap required to actually board the train be it HST or bug chariot from many of those stations.Saltash for example has a tw to three foot gap between platform and coach floor.

[Welly]

HST stock has manually operated doors! - and is thus exempt from the regulation that requires all doors to be adjacent to the platform.

 

When the LNER sets get power operated doors then they will need to have Selective Door Operation fitted too or they will be banned from Lincoln.

 

The same would apply to GWR if their new 'short' sets they are keeping are longer than the platforms at Ivybridge

They are centrally locked these days so I assume that the ones not next to the platform remain locked.

[Coryton]

'Grandfather rights' are disliked by the ORR and certainly cannot be applied to new or modified situations - full stop.

 

Pretty much every new train these days comes with selective door operation so short platforms like Berney Arms will not be an issue for the new GA fleet.

 

I have seen it suggested that even with SDO, stopping at short platforms is only permitted with 'grandfather rights' because of the risk that SDO may be applied incorrectly. I don't know if this is true. 

 

I would have thought that at least with automatic SDO the risk should be acceptable.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Do 'grandfather rights' apply in this instance?

In that if you have a pre-existing station with a short platform, then you may run overlong trains which call at that station.

If there is a new-build station, (built after a specific date) then platforms must be constructed so that the whole of each train must be platformed.

 

cheers

Both Billingshurst and Littlehaven have had their platforms extended in recent years (in both cases from 4 to 8 carriage capacity), so the shorter platforms must still be a valid approach. It was a bit of a half measure as in both cases there is space for the full 12 capacity, and a decent enough percentage of trains serving them are 12 carriages (particularly Littlehaven, which is served by the Thameslink 700s).

[GoingUnderground]

Hi,

Just wondering if, in this day of enhanced elf and safety , can you stop an overlong passenger train to pick up if some of the coaches are not in the platform ?

 

Thinking of charters for my next layout but not sure if it’s possible

Yes. It happens at our local station every day. There is an announcement made over the PA to tell you which carriages you can use to alight from the train.

[Wickham Green]

Yes. It happens at our local station every day. There is an announcement made over the PA to tell you which carriages you can use to alight from the train.

At my local station we have the opposite 'problem' ..... twelve car platforms - but I've only once seen a train longer than ten ! 

[62613]

Can remember, about 50 years ago, going on a trip from March to Hunstanton (Sunday school excursion) via Wisbech; at all the small stations between Wisbech and Lynn, where the platforms were too short for the train, we drew up twice; I believe that double drawing up was quite common at one time; was that so?

[Coryton]

Both Billingshurst and Littlehaven have had their platforms extended in recent years (in both cases from 4 to 8 carriage capacity), so the shorter platforms must still be a valid approach. It was a bit of a half measure as in both cases there is space for the full 12 capacity, and a decent enough percentage of trains serving them are 12 carriages (particularly Littlehaven, which is served by the Thameslink 700s).

 

At Billingshurst I think this only happens when there is disruption and a 12 coach train which should split/join into a fast and a slow train at Horsham ends up as a stopping train between Horsham and Barnham,

[Claude_Dreyfus]

At Billingshurst I think this only happens when there is disruption and a 12 coach train which should split/join into a fast and a slow train at Horsham ends up as a stopping train between Horsham and Barnham,

There are a couple of peak time trains each way that are 12, plus some of the later trains which can be 12 carriages also; at least one still splits at Barnham. Sunday trains are often 12 carriages. But I take your point, most trains are 4 or 8 carriage length.

[phil-b259]

They are centrally locked these days so I assume that the ones not next to the platform remain locked.

 

Not so!

 

The central door locking fitted to HSTs (and the ex InterCity Mk2 and Mk3 fleet) is VERY basic. The guard has a choice of releasing ALL doors or None!

 

Selective Door Operation only really came in after privatisation where the introduction of train mounted GPS and / or Balasies mounted in the 4ft can tell the train where it is and how many doors to open.

 

NONE of the BR built fleet of multiple units have SDO - apart from a very crude variant of it on the 3rd Rail Networkers to cope with the situation at Charing Cross.

[phil-b259]

They are centrally locked these days so I assume that the ones not next to the platform remain locked.

 

I repeat - the criteria is NOT whether they are centrally locked - its whether the doors are manually opened by the user (by lowering the window and turning an exterior handle) or whether they merely push a button and the train opens the door for them for them.

[phil-b259]

I have seen it suggested that even with SDO, stopping at short platforms is only permitted with 'grandfather rights' because of the risk that SDO may be applied incorrectly. I don't know if this is true. 

 

I would have thought that at least with automatic SDO the risk should be acceptable.

 

 

 

If there is a new-build station, (built after a specific date) then platforms must be constructed so that the whole of each train must be platformed.

 

 

 

The situation with new stations is that building a short platform and using a SDO fitted train is considered perfectly acceptable by the ORR - indeed its sometimes the only way a new station can be opened if physical constraints like a bridge mean the costs of constructing the station would be to much if it had to be rebuilt.

 

The reason why the ORR may not approve of SDO in certain locations is actually all to do with passenger volumes - if lots of people use the station then a short platform could get over crowded causing the potential for passengers to fall onto the line ./ being unable to stand back if a non stop train approaches or falling between the train and the platform when boarding / alighting.

 

Of course he other factor is that if lots of folk are boarding / alighting through only a small number of doors, station dwell times will increase - and as such SDO may be a false economy.

Edited October 24, 2018 by phil-b259

[Suzie]

Last time I went on the Seven Valley I got out at Bewdley, but was surprised to find no platform when I opened the door! Not sure whether there should have been but I climbed down the steps anyway...

[Coryton]

Not so!

 

The central door locking fitted to HSTs (and the ex InterCity Mk2 and Mk3 fleet) is VERY basic. The guard has a choice of releasing ALL doors or None!

 

Selective Door Operation only really came in after privatisation where the introduction of train mounted GPS and / or Balasies mounted in the 4ft can tell the train where it is and how many doors to open.

 

Perhaps my memory is at fault, but I thought the GWR HSTs had a manual form of SDO where the guard can choose to only release doors from one end up to the panel they are using. 

[phil-b259]

Perhaps my memory is at fault, but I thought the GWR HSTs had a manual form of SDO where the guard can choose to only release doors from one end up to the panel they are using. 

 

They might do - but it would be a modification to the BR installed system to cater for a specific need (and I have a funny feeling its got something to do with serving Stonehouse), but it is not universal on all HSTs on all franchises.

[hexagon789]

Perhaps my memory is at fault, but I thought the GWR HSTs had a manual form of SDO where the guard can choose to only release doors from one end up to the panel they are using.

They do, I believe the release options are something like: All doors, All doors forward, All doors behind or something like that.

Edited October 24, 2018 by hexagon789

[big jim]

Bearly, between Stratford and Hatton is only 2 coaches long and has booked 3 car units without selective door opening stopping there en route to london, the conductor locks out the lead coach doors individually either at Hatton or Stratford and makes announcements to say anyone wishing to alight should use the rear 2 coaches

 

‘Bearly’ in the platform

 

The platform has X car stop boards for 3 car units to stop at off the platform (as per the picture) as you can see it’s actually just the lead door that is off the platform

 

If you are booked to stop there and your unit has been substituted for a 4 car unit then you are not allowed to pick up passengers there however you have to stop to tell them to push the ‘passenger assistance button’ on the station help point and a taxi will be dispatched to collect them straight away, I only ever had that happen once though! (I was tempted to just let them on via the cab door tbh!)

[Coryton]

Bearly, between Stratford and Hatton is only 2 coaches long and has booked 3 car units without selective door opening stopping there en route to london, the conductor locks out the lead coach doors individually either at Hatton or Stratford and makes announcements to say anyone wishing to alight should use the rear 2 coaches

 

‘Bearly’ in the platform

 

The platform has X car stop boards for 3 car units to stop at off the platform (as per the picture) as you can see it’s actually just the lead door that is off the platform

 

If you are booked to stop there and your unit has been substituted for a 4 car unit then you are not allowed to pick up passengers there however you have to stop to tell them to push the ‘passenger assistance button’ on the station help point and a taxi will be dispatched to collect them straight away, I only ever had that happen once though! (I was tempted to just let them on via the cab door tbh!)

 

That sounds rather odd.

 

Couldn't the conductor let them in through a door on local open, as is done at stations with platforms less than a coach length?

[Zomboid]

Before they had proper SDO, SWT used to open just the conductor's door at Shawford when a 444 called there.

 

I think Beaulieu Road was the same, but those trains were never frequent... Presumably those aren't the only examples.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Zomboid

[big jim]

That sounds rather odd.

 

Couldn't the conductor let them in through a door on local open, as is done at stations with platforms less than a coach length?

168s dont have local door facilities (not sure about the ex 170s though but they are inly 2-3 car anyway)

[Ken.W]

They are centrally locked these days so I assume that the ones not next to the platform remain locked.

 

No, The (currently) LNER sets do not have Secondary Door Locking so all doors are unlocked, although they do serve a number of stations with shorter platforms, particularly in the North of Scotland

 

I have seen it suggested that even with SDO, stopping at short platforms is only permitted with 'grandfather rights' . I don't know if this is true.

 

If that were true, then quite a number of stations would be losing their services when the HSTs go and LNER gets new IETs, which do have SDO.

They also started serving Sunderland a couple of year ago, where they have 2&1/2 coaches off the platform.

 

Bearly, between Stratford and Hatton is only 2 coaches long and has booked 3 car units without selective door opening stopping there en route to london, the conductor locks out the lead coach doors individually either at Hatton or Stratford and makes announcements to say anyone wishing to alight should use the rear 2 coaches

 

If you are booked to stop there and your unit has been substituted for a 4 car unit then you are not allowed to pick up passengers there however you have to stop to tell them to push the ‘passenger assistance button’ on the station help point and a taxi will be dispatched to collect them straight away, I only ever had that happen once though! (I was tempted to just let them on via the cab door tbh!)

 

That's odd, as if the doors at either end of the train are locked out of use, then that coach must be taken out of passenger use also.

 

Also, as has been said, the usual solution for such situations would be for the guard to use the local door.

Edit; your last post crossed with this one

Edited October 24, 2018 by Ken.W

[big jim]

 

That's odd, as if the doors at either end of the train are locked out of use, then that coach must be taken out of passenger use also.

 

Also, as has been said, the usual solution for such situations would be for the guard to use the local door.

Edit; your last post crossed with this one

i think there was special dispensation given, thats why it was locked out at the station prior to the stop to keep the time they were locked oou to a minimum, some guards would walk down and re-energise them as soon as the train left bearley

 

on the subject of locking doors and moving passengers i remember having a 'discussion' with arriva wales control one night, working the last birmingham-chester service the 158 had a lighting failure in one coach, the batteries had died and the unit wasnt cross feeding, the guard agreed to move passengers to the unaffected coach and roll the shutter down between the coaches and travel up front with me but control were adamant that the train should be cancelled as if there was an emergency you wouldnt be able to evacuate the coach, it took a lot of explaining that the unaffected coach still had doors in use both sides at both ends, it was only when i said "all we have done is make a 153 out of a 158" that the penny dropped with them that it was safe to run

[RJS1977]

They might do - but it would be a modification to the BR installed system to cater for a specific need (and I have a funny feeling its got something to do with serving Stonehouse), but it is not universal on all HSTs on all franchises.

 

Pewsey is another 'short platform' station served by HSTs, and I'm sure there are others (e.g. most of the stations on the Pembroke Dock branch on Summer Saturdays!)

[phil-b259]

Pewsey is another 'short platform' station served by HSTs, and I'm sure there are others (e.g. most of the stations on the Pembroke Dock branch on Summer Saturdays!)

 

However as has been pointed out, none of the East Coast HSTs have any form of SDO (its all or nothing released) and many of those are shorter than Pewsey, etc

 

Therefore short platforms cannot be the only reason GWR HSTs have a crude form of SDO installed - there must be another factor involved...