Car handbrake problem; advice needed please.

[Ohmisterporter]

I wonder if someone can offer advice about my car handbrake problem? Parking our Toyota Yaris yesterday and the handbrake pulled up much higher than normal. Best described as rising to 70 degrees rather than 40 degrees as before. No warning that anything untoward was happening but it startled me by pulling up so far. Checked under the car and could see nothing: no fluid leaks anywhere and nothing obviously at fault. Had a test drive and the brakes worked fine. Handbrake holds on the steepest hill I could find; facing both up and down hill. The only thing that has changed recently was a new back tyre fitted about three weeks ago.

I always use the handbrake by pulling it up with the end button pressed in until it feels firm then releasing. Never pull the brake on by clicking it over the ratchet; perhaps if I had I would now know how many extra clicks it makes. Is it good practice to click the brake on?  Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

[meil]

I wonder if someone can offer advice about my car handbrake problem? Parking our Toyota Yaris yesterday and the handbrake pulled up much higher than normal. Best described as rising to 70 degrees rather than 40 degrees as before. No warning that anything untoward was happening but it startled me by pulling up so far. Checked under the car and could see nothing: no fluid leaks anywhere and nothing obviously at fault. Had a test drive and the brakes worked fine. Handbrake holds on the steepest hill I could find; facing both up and down hill. The only thing that has changed recently was a new back tyre fitted about three weeks ago.

I always use the handbrake by pulling it up with the end button pressed in until it feels firm then releasing. Never pull the brake on by clicking it over the ratchet; perhaps if I had I would now know how many extra clicks it makes. Is it good practice to click the brake on?  Any advice or suggestions will be gratefully received.

If this were a cable operated handbrake then I would suggest one of the cables has broken.

[EddieB]

Excessive travel on the handbrake would be an MOT failure.

[Ohmisterporter]

It is because this has happened so suddenly that leads me to the broken cable theory. I will get this checked out. Thanks for the advice. 

 

Any recommendations regarding pulling up the handbrake and clicking the ratchet? 

[Tony_S]

It is the sudden change of operation that would concern me. Previous cars we have owned have had some quite complex cable linkages . If I couldn’t see anything obvious I would be going to my nearest friendly Toyota garage!

Tony

[Roddy Angus]

The last time this happened to me it was because the outer part of the brake cable had failed.  Failure of the handbrake is serious and you should have it checked immediately.

 

On pulling on the handbrake against the ratchet, clicking the handbrake on will cause wear to the ratchet mechanism and, if excessive, could lead to the handbrake slipping off.  I was always taught to depress the ratchet release when putting on the handbrake for this reason.  I live on a hill and I have seen at least 4 cars run away due to handbrake failure over the last 20 years or so, one with a 4 year old child in it.  Thankfully it crashed into a neighbours car quite quickly, as it would have been going very fast by the bottom of the hill.

 

Better safe than sorry.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[MarkC]

The last time this happened to me it was because the outer part of the brake cable had failed.  Failure of the handbrake is serious and you should have it checked immediately.

 

On pulling on the handbrake against the ratchet, clicking the handbrake on will cause wear to the ratchet mechanism and, if excessive, could lead to the handbrake slipping off.  I was always taught to depress the ratchet release when putting on the handbrake for this reason.  I live on a hill and I have seen at least 4 cars run away due to handbrake failure over the last 20 years or so, one with a 4 year old child in it.  Thankfully it crashed into a neighbours car quite quickly, as it would have been going very fast by the bottom of the hill.

 

Better safe than sorry.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

Totally agree with this.

 

I was always taught to leave the car in gear when parking on a hill, and to have the front wheels turned so that they would come up against the kerb almost immediately if the car did start to roll.

 

I still do this, even today. Many folk disagree, but that's their perogative.

[Guest]

On pulling on the handbrake against the ratchet, clicking the handbrake on will cause wear to the ratchet mechanism

No it won't.

[stewartingram]

No it won't.

 

Yes it will. My 1st car (which I maintained but on ashoestring for over 12 years) had the handbrake lever down by the drivers door, with the ratchet and pawl exposed. I replaced that ratchet 3 times, and the pawl at least once. Irritates me (as a person trained in engineering) to hear a handbrake abused in that way.

 

Stewart

[Tony_S]

Yes it will. My 1st car (which I maintained but on ashoestring for over 12 years) had the handbrake lever down by the drivers door, with the ratchet and pawl exposed. I replaced that ratchet 3 times, and the pawl at least once. Irritates me (as a person trained in engineering) to hear a handbrake abused in that way.

 

Stewart

I looked up handbrake ratchet yes or no on the internet. It would appear that ratchets on older cars were prone to wear. Not an issue on more modern cars where materials are tested to last a certain time. I suppose either lifetime or certain service intervals. Also some cars the manual suggested the ratchet should be utilised when applying the handbrake. It doesn’t seem to be an issue during the UK driving test either. I, suppose due to learning years ago, used to pull the handbrake while pressing the button and then clicking the final position. Not an issue for me now. The “handbrake” is applied when the car is stopped or in park. It is released automatically when you drive off too. There is a little switch where the handbrake would normally be so you can turn it on and off manually if you wish. No cables to adjust though. A solenoid acts on the rear disc callipers. Edited October 28, 2018 by Tony_S

[Guest]

Yes it will. My 1st car (which I maintained but on ashoestring for over 12 years) had the handbrake lever down by the drivers door, with the ratchet and pawl exposed. I replaced that ratchet 3 times, and the pawl at least once. Irritates me (as a person trained in engineering) to hear a handbrake abused in that way.

 

Stewart

No it won't.

[ejstubbs]

Is it pantomime season already?

[Colin_McLeod]

No it's not.

[Colin_McLeod]

Tony_s does the solenoid operate to apply the brake when energised, or to apply the brake when de energised?

 

I'm trying to get my head round what the failure mode would be.

[polybear]

Yes it will. My 1st car (which I maintained but on ashoestring for over 12 years) had the handbrake lever down by the drivers door, with the ratchet and pawl exposed. I replaced that ratchet 3 times, and the pawl at least once. Irritates me (as a person trained in engineering) to hear a handbrake abused in that way.

 

Stewart

 

My driving instructor taught me that if I were to put the handbrake on incorrectly during the exam (i.e. not pushing the button in first) then I'd get a fail for "incorrect use of the handbrake"

[stewartingram]

Each to there own.

ANY mechanical item wears. A metal pawl dragged over a metal ratchet, WILL wear, on both surfaces. That is why we introduce lubrication. The rate of wear will depends on the materials used. Make the ratchet harder metal, the pawl will wear faster, and vice versa. Basic mechanical engineering.

I'll say no more on the subject.

 

Stewart

Edited October 29, 2018 by stewartingram

[chris p bacon]

For a handbrake turn you have to keep the button depressed so you can release it easily.

 

I always listen for the applause...   

[Guest]

Each to there own.

ANY mechanical item wears. A metal pawl dragged over a metal ratchet, WILL wear, on both surfaces. That is why we introduce lubrication. The rate of wear will depends on the materials used. Make the ratcher harder metal, the pawl will wear faster, and vice versa. Basic mechanical engineering.

I'll say no more on the subject.

 

Stewart

Take two teaspoons. Rub them together until one gets a hole in it. Let me know when you're done.

[mark axlecounter]

The wear on handbrake ratchets is very rare now. I have been a mechanic for 20 years working for Landover, Vauxhall and Toyota and in that time I have seen the p38 range rovers recalled for handbrake problems ( if you slam the door on a p38 the hand brake would drop due to poor ratchets). 

 

Going back to the reason for this topic the Yaris has cables and if one snaps then the other one will still hold but as Ohmisterporter says the travel will be greater because one has snapped or the other thing I've seen is the circlip on the cable to the calliper or drum (depends on year of car ) has  come off /broke off.

 

Hope you get it sorted

 

Mark

[Tony_S]

Tony_s does the solenoid operate to apply the brake when energised, or to apply the brake when de energised?

I'm trying to get my head round what the failure mode would be.

Not sure. It does have some way of compensating for hot discs cooling down after the brake is applied. If the handbrake mechanism failed it probably wouldn’t roll away as the car would be in transmission park mode.

[Pete the Elaner]

Yes it will. My 1st car (which I maintained but on shoestring for over 12 years) had the handbrake lever down by the drivers door, with the ratchet and pawl exposed. I replaced that ratchet 3 times, and the pawl at least once. Irritates me (as a person trained in engineering) to hear a handbrake abused in that way.

 

Stewart

I can't believe someone disagreed with you over this.

Consider what is going on:

 

What you hear when applying the handbrake without pressing the release button is the pawl dropping down each tooth of the ratchet wheel, being forced onto the next one by its spring.

These are not continuously lubricated so you have metal to metal contact. Metal rubbing against metal causes wear, so of course it will wear the ratchet. As the materials wear, the edges will round off.

Whether it will wear it enough to fail in the lifetime of the car is another matter.

 

It maybe useful to occasionally count the clicks as a way of describing how far you are having to pull the lever, but I choose not to do this regularly.

[MarkC]

Regardless of the theory about harder materials being used - and it is almost certain that many <ahem> 'budget' brands will still use the cheapest material possible - it is always good practice to depress the button and hold the ratchet off as you are applying the brake. As was drummed into me from an early age - look after the equipment and it wil look after you.

[Pete the Elaner]

Take two teaspoons. Rub them together until one gets a hole in it. Let me know when you're done.

But you stated that the ratchet did not wear, not that they did not fail because of wear. These are 2 very different statements.

The ratchet has sharp corners, which are weak areas.

 

I have never heard of a handbrake ratchet which has failed due to wear, but that is not the same as arguing that it cannot happen.

[Guest]

But you stated that the ratchet did not wear, not that they did not fail because of wear. These are 2 very different statements.

The ratchet has sharp corners, which are weak areas.

 

I have never heard of a handbrake ratchet which has failed due to wear, but that is not the same as arguing that it cannot happen.

It's pretty obvious what I meant re: old wives tales.

 

The only time I've ever had a handbrake component replaced was on a Vectra which had a recall for a problem where the handbrake could slip a notch if you _didn't_ click the ratchet.

 

Many owners manuals tell you to click the ratchet as there's a chance of leaving the pawl perched on the tip of tooth otherwise.

My current car has a pedal operated parking brake and there isn't even a button to press.

 

There's only one reason to press the button and it's that you don't like the noise.

[Nick C]

A sudden increase in travel is almost certainly a snapped cable - there is usually a balance bar underneath (effectively a 3" long bar with the lever pulling on the middle, and the two cables attached at either end), if one cable snaps (or somehow becomes disconnected), the bar will swivel and should still pull on the remaining side, but will travel further to do so.

 

If you can safely get underneath you can probably see it, or check by applying the handbrake, putting the car in gear, jacking up each side in turn and trying to spin the wheel - the failed one will probably spin freely, the other shouldn't. To be honest, I'd probably replace both cables anyway, just to be on the safe side.

 

Clicking the ratchet will cause wear, but on a modern car it should still outlast the rest of the car! However I always park in gear anyway, just in case the handbrake doesn't hold (it's not unknown for the handbrake to slacken slightly as the brakes cool down, and if it's a bit marginal to start with, it could be enough for the car to move)