Rylstone Station (YDR) - signalling and point operation queries

[Tortuga]

Hope someone here will be able to help me out. Below is my shortened and narrowed version of Rylstone Station on the Grassington Branch based on the 1909 version of the 25” scale OS map.

As far as I can tell the track plan didn’t really change between 1909 and the closure of the line in 1969 other than losing the platform, most of the station building and the goods shed and becoming increasingly overgrown. Most of the photos I’ve found tend to focus on the level crossing end, which leaves me guessing regarding how the loop was operated.

1) there’s no signal box, so which is more likely; a lever controlling each end of the loop; a ground frame with facing point locks controlling both ends of the loop; or two ground frames with facing point locks one each end of the loop?

2) the signals are located either side of the crossing and I assume would have been interlocked with the gates. The map shows a signal post further north of Rylstone, beyond the loop; would this have been to protect the loop during shunting?

Finally 3) how would the sidings have been shunted?

Any help gratefully received!

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tortuga

[beast66606]

I would imagine there would be a ground frame at each end of the loop and a separate frame for the level crossing signals - three in all.

 

The sidings were probably served by trains heading left to right - have you looked in the sectional appendix to see if there's anything in there ?

[iands]

Hi Tortuga,

 

I'll do a bit more digging, but the only thing I've got from my records so far is the attached photo I took when we were doing a bit of a survey on the line during Railtrack days. It is a (then) fixed distant signal in the Down direction (towards Rylstone) at approximately 4³/₄ mile post. It is a LQ arm. Also of interest is the 'double J' bracket for telegraph pots approx. half way up the signal post.

 

[Tortuga]

I would imagine there would be a ground frame at each end of the loop and a separate frame for the level crossing signals - three in all.

 

The sidings were probably served by trains heading left to right - have you looked in the sectional appendix to see if there's anything in there ?

Thanks beast66606, three frames make the most sense to me - I’m guessing but I think the levers for the signals were housed in a small hut next to the crossing.

Where would I find the sectional appendix you mention to confirm your hunch regarding shunting the sidings? Assuming they were only served by trains heading north (left to right), what was the point of the loop?

[beast66606]

Thanks beast66606, three frames make the most sense to me - I’m guessing but I think the levers for the signals were housed in a small hut next to the crossing.

Where would I find the sectional appendix you mention to confirm your hunch regarding shunting the sidings? Assuming they were only served by trains heading north (left to right), what was the point of the loop?

 

 

What year are you modelling ?

[Tortuga]

Hi Tortuga,

 

I'll do a bit more digging, but the only thing I've got from my records so far is the attached photo I took when we were doing a bit of a survey on the line during Railtrack days. It is a (then) fixed distant signal in the Down direction (towards Rylstone) at approximately 4³/₄ mile post. It is a LQ arm. Also of interest is the 'double J' bracket for telegraph pots approx. half way up the signal post.

 

rylstone1 001.jpg

Thanks iands, that ties in with the position of the signal post on the 1909 map and I assume the fixed distant would allow trains to proceed but warn drivers to be prepared to stop if the crossing gates were closed.

Being fixed, I don’t need to worry about modelling signal wire running from the northern end of the loop!

Based on this, is it safe to assume that only one train would be on the branch at a time? I’m assuming if this wasn’t the case, Rylstone would require more signals than two?

[Tortuga]

What year are you modelling ?

1964. Specifically March of that year.

 

(I know, another 1960s grimey BR layout, but from the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo gallery, I know a Fowler 4F 0-6-0 and a Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 were in use on the branch on that day, in addition (I assume) to the usual BR 4MT 4-6-0s)

[beast66606]

In 1937 :

 

Rylstone Station - Main to siding was worked by a stage controlled by the token which was electric and it was round with a round hole in the centre.

 

I'll see if I can find my 1960 appendix and see what that states.

[iands]

Thanks iands, that ties in with the position of the signal post on the 1909 map and I assume the fixed distant would allow trains to proceed but warn drivers to be prepared to stop if the crossing gates were closed.

Being fixed, I don’t need to worry about modelling signal wire running from the northern end of the loop!

Based on this, is it safe to assume that only one train would be on the branch at a time? I’m assuming if this wasn’t the case, Rylstone would require more signals than two?

 

Hi Tortuga,

 

I've been looking at some historical Sectional Appendices from the 60s thru' to the 2000s period (there a few of these on the "Limit of Shunt" website). Haven't seen any reference to any Ground Frames but this it may be that the sidings/station had disappeared before these SAs were issued - they just show in effect a single line all the way from Embsay Junction (then latterly Skipton) up to the railway boundary with the quarry concern. The "operation" over this stretch of line is "NST" (No Signaller Token, something akin to "One Engine in Steam). Certainly the more recent SAs mention that engines must not be left on the branch overnight and a degree of permissive working for topping/tailing and run-rounds etc.

 

I realise this is not much help in your quest for specific info, but I will keep on looking. I don't want to rain on your parade as it were, but the loop and station might have been dispensed with by 1964 - unless you know different of course!

[Jub45565]

1964. Specifically March of that year.

 

(I know, another 1960s grimey BR layout, but from the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo gallery, I know a Fowler 4F 0-6-0 and a Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 were in use on the branch on that day, in addition (I assume) to the usual BR 4MT 4-6-0s)

No 75xxxs were transferred to Skipton til March 65 - edited to add that there are several references (admittedly all in Donald Binns publications) that they werent used on the branch until 1966.

 

There was a class 2, 78055 for a year up until 3/64. No Ivatt 4s after October 58. Some Wharfedale freight was worked by Holbeck locos but I don't think that included Grassington.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Jub45565

[RailWest]

....... controlled by the token which was electric and it was round with a round hole in the centre.

 

Sounds like a tablet to me, unless they meant the shape of the token handle ? 

[Jub45565]

In Donald Binn's later yellow and purple book (no ISBN that I can see) it is said that Rylstone level crossing was worked from a 6 lever ground frame protected in both directions by home and distant signals. No mention is made of other point operation.

 

There is a second groundframe shown in the Signalling record society British Railways layout plans of the 1950s, volume 12: Ex-MR main line Carlisle to Leeds, associated branches and joint lines - but the groundframes aren't covered by the book (unlike boxes, where all the signals and points have the lever numbers annotated).

[beast66606]

Sounds like a tablet to me, unless they meant the shape of the token handle ? 

 

Possibly - but that's the LMS description.

[Tortuga]

Hi Tortuga,

 

I've been looking at some historical Sectional Appendices from the 60s thru' to the 2000s period (there a few of these on the "Limit of Shunt" website). Haven't seen any reference to any Ground Frames but this it may be that the sidings/station had disappeared before these SAs were issued - they just show in effect a single line all the way from Embsay Junction (then latterly Skipton) up to the railway boundary with the quarry concern. The "operation" over this stretch of line is "NST" (No Signaller Token, something akin to "One Engine in Steam). Certainly the more recent SAs mention that engines must not be left on the branch overnight and a degree of permissive working for topping/tailing and run-rounds etc.

 

I realise this is not much help in your quest for specific info, but I will keep on looking. I don't want to rain on your parade as it were, but the loop and station might have been dispensed with by 1964 - unless you know different of course!

Thanks for the extra research (I’ll have to check out the Limit of Shunt website) - what you’ve found seems to confirm what I thought about the operation being one engine on the line at a time.

 

The station was out of use for passenger traffic from 1930, although I understand that parcel traffic at least was handled at Rylstone until the branch closed in 1969. Going off photos of Rylstone in the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo galleries, certainly the south end of the loop and sidings remained in place during first half of the 1960s - one photo by David Hays seems to show the siding tracks as having shiny top surfaces, suggesting they were still in use...

 

(I’d love to share the photo, but I don’t think I can having read the forum rules?)

[Jub45565]

Yes, Grassington box closed in 1962 at which point it became 1 engine in steam from Embsay junction.

 

I usually share the link for photos on there, they are brilliant as you say!

[Tortuga]

No 75xxxs were transferred to Skipton til March 65 - edited to add that there are several references (admittedly all in Donald Binns publications) that they werent used on the branch until 1966.

Ah. I didn’t know they weren’t transferred to Skipton before March 65. DaveF on this forum has several photos of 75039 at Grassington in August 65 (and other members of the class afterward), so they were in use before 66. What was providing motive power before their arrival?

 

There was a class 2, 78055 for a year up until 3/64. No Ivatt 4s after October 58. Some Wharfedale freight was worked by Holbeck locos but I don't think that included Grassington.

There’s a few photos of 73014 at Grassington 30th March 1964 having worked a special there in the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo galleries.

 

My main reason for March 64 was the presence of 73014 and at least 1 Fowler 4F on the branch at this time.

[Tortuga]

There is a second groundframe shown in the Signalling record society British Railways layout plans of the 1950s, volume 12: Ex-MR main line Carlisle to Leeds, associated branches and joint lines - but the groundframes aren't covered by the book (unlike boxes, where all the signals and points have the lever numbers annotated).

I actually have that volume! I’d not looked in there (idiot that I am) as I’d previously noted no information on levers...

Edit; I never realised those two little squares represented ground frames; thanks for pointing them out! For the record, I’ve seen no sign of the second one in any of the photos I’ve looked at, but I’ll check again now.

Oddly the signalling diagram does show the goods shed - since the diagram was drawn between 1955 and 1960 (according to the blurb), that implies (to my mind) the goods shed lasted longer than I’d thought...

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tortuga

[DaveF]

Ah. I didn’t know they weren’t transferred to Skipton before March 65. DaveF on this forum has several photos of 75039 at Grassington in August 65 (and other members of the class afterward), so they were in use before 66. What was providing motive power before their arrival?

 

 

There’s a few photos of 73014 at Grassington 30th March 1964 having worked a special there in the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo galleries.

 

My main reason for March 64 was the presence of 73014 and at least 1 Fowler 4F on the branch at this time.

 

Talking to the train crew at Grassington one day while taking photos of a 75xxx I was told that the diagram started at Carnforth, so that could explain their appearance at Grassington before they were shedded at Skipton.

 

David

[beast66606]

I actually have that volume! I’d not looked in there (idiot that I am) as I’d previously noted no information on levers...

Edit; I never realised those two little squares represented ground frames; thanks for pointing them out! For the record, I’ve seen no sign of the second one in any of the photos I’ve looked at, but I’ll check again now.

Oddly the signalling diagram does show the goods shed - since the diagram was drawn between 1955 and 1960 (according to the blurb), that implies (to my mind) the goods shed lasted longer than I’d thought...

 

 Be careful assuming the diagrams are correct - they are full of mistakes.

[Jub45565]

Ah. I didn’t know they weren’t transferred to Skipton before March 65. DaveF on this forum has several photos of 75039 at Grassington in August 65 (and other members of the class afterward), so they were in use before 66. What was providing motive power before their arrival?

 

 

There’s a few photos of 73014 at Grassington 30th March 1964 having worked a special there in the Embsay and Bolton Abby photo galleries.

 

My main reason for March 64 was the presence of 73014 and at least 1 Fowler 4F on the branch at this time.

August 65 is fine as they were at Skipton by then, so perfectly plausible.

 

Before then it was 4Fs, Skipton had loads of them. There may have been interspersed with 3Fs and Ivatt 2 2-6-0s when the loads were light enough but they had left Skipton by 64.

 

 

I actually have that volume! I’d not looked in there (idiot that I am) as I’d previously noted no information on levers...

Edit; I never realised those two little squares represented ground frames; thanks for pointing them out! For the record, I’ve seen no sign of the second one in any of the photos I’ve looked at, but I’ll check again now.

Oddly the signalling diagram does show the goods shed - since the diagram was drawn between 1955 and 1960 (according to the blurb), that implies (to my mind) the goods shed lasted longer than I’d thought...

 

As well as Beast's comment that they might not be right, this is also an assumption on my part! Very few things are labelled, but several little squares on other locations are labelled GF for ground frame - so working with that, and knowing that the one by the crossing is a ground frame, it makes sense to me.

 

There was a flow of animal feed to Rylstone, but I'm not sure when that traffic dried up (/transferred to road). If that was still going, I would guess the shed would be kept for it.

 

Talking to the train crew at Grassington one day while taking photos of a 75xxx I was told that the diagram started at Carnforth, so that could explain their appearance at Grassington before they were shedded at Skipton.

 

David

The Carnforth 75xxxs were the Skipton ones, transferred there when Skipton shed closed and so worked the branch from there. I'm not sure what logic/evidence Donald Binn's had for saying they werent used for the first year or so of Skipton allocation, and as you have evidence to suggest otherwise then that's good enough for me!

[Tortuga]

Thanks for all the replies! Referring back to my original post it looks like;

1) there was one ground frame for the gates and another for the loop operated (in LMS days) by electric token.

2) the crossing was protected by two signals, with other signals consisting of fixed distant signals.

3) shunting (during the period modelled) would have been minimal and probably involving only northbound trains.

[micknich2003]

There was an article "British Railway's last steam worked Branch" (Grassington Branch) in from memory the June or July 1968 "Railway World". If you can find a copy, they may be pictures, certainly, I no longer have it.