Class 180 "Adelante" External Noise

[wombatofludham]

I've just been watching a DVD which featured a lot of Class 180 "action", and as a class of train I've never experienced first hand I was surprised by the amount of brake squeal they generate, far more than any other class of unit, or so it seems to me.  Most modern trains appear to have less brake squeal due to the use of modern braking control, disc brakes and the like but the 180s seemed to be ear-splittingly loud.  Does anyone from the real railway who knows these units have a reason for this?  Do they have tread brakes? 

 

The other thing I noticed was that under acceleration there would be a high pitched whistle set in, a bit like wheel-creep or flange squeal.  I assume this is something to do with the transmission but again, it was quite piercing and something not noted on other hydro-mechanical drive units.  Again, is there an explanation for this?

My curiosity is born of me having had to become informed on noise and vibration from rail vehicles whilst working on Midland Metro and since then I have developed an unhealthy interest in noise, despite being retired.  It seems odd that a unit that was developed as a cost-effective inter-city unit for flagship routes is, externally at least, such a noisy unit.  Does the brake squeal and the high pitched whistling when accelerating penetrate the passenger cabin?

 

As I say I've never travelled in one as they now run up and down (or not in the case of Hull Trains' fleet) the wrong side of the wrong country so I'm not trying to start a punch up on the relative merits of underfloor engine units, having travelled on most second generation units and Voyagers I actually find over 40-50 mph the primary noise source is wheel-rail noise and at lower speeds find the engine noise acceptable and actually quite interesting so you will never convince me that underfloor engine dmus are the spawn of Satan.  I'm just puzzled how the Class 180 is so almost painfully noisy when stood on a platform as one brakes to a stop or accelerates away.

[Zomboid]

I've noticed the brake noise from the outside, but on the relatively few occasions when I've ridden one, those noises haven't been especially noticeable inside (which is to say I haven't noticed them).

[87023Velocity]

The class 180 does have disc brakes, the bogie effectively very similar to a class 175. However a class 180 uses Sintered Brake pads compared to organic brake pads which the majority of rolling stock use in disc brake applications. Organic pads are softer so that maybe the reason for the brake squeal with the 180 as Sintered are harder. That being said, the class 80x fleet use Sintered pads and don't think they squeal. With regards to the other noises, not sure.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[DavidB]

The 800s definitely do squeal when braking at low speeds - it’s just much less pronounced than the Adelantes, which (I agree with the OP) make a horrible noise.

[96701]

I had the misfortune to travel on Adelantes when First Great Western had a habit of swapping a 2 + 8 HST for a 5 car Adelante. When I did manage to get a seat on one of those rattle traps, I could feel it move as people walked past down the aisle. The only good thing about them was that they could out accelerate an HST.

 

Anybody who thinks Voyagers are the worst inter city trains have not travelled on an Adelante.

[The Stationmaster]

I had the misfortune to travel on Adelantes when First Great Western had a habit of swapping a 2 + 8 HST for a 5 car Adelante. When I did manage to get a seat on one of those rattle traps, I could feel it move as people walked past down the aisle. The only good thing about them was that they could out accelerate an HST.

 

Anybody who thinks Voyagers are the worst inter city trains have not travelled on an Adelante.

 

The most amazing (?) thing about Adelantes is their propensity for parts of the interior fittings to come away in your hand if you happened to grab them for any reason.  The only one I've ever travelled on which seemed to have almost everything bolted down was a Hull Trains set

[Covkid]

Don't forget the class 180 were designed with retarders to work alongside the braking system.  However, like many facets of the Adelante the retarders were not sufficiently robust so were isolated.  Can't remember why but I think there were fire risks, which of course still happen as on two of the FHT 180s recently. 

 

Perhaps there is more squealing from the traditional disc brakes because of this. If only Alstom had the foresight to built them with an electric instead of hydraulic transmission, they might have become Bimodes, and worked !!!   

[wombatofludham]

Don't forget the class 180 were designed with retarders to work alongside the braking system.  However, like many facets of the Adelante the retarders were not sufficiently robust so were isolated.  Can't remember why but I think there were fire risks, which of course still happen as on two of the FHT 180s recently. 

 

Perhaps there is more squealing from the traditional disc brakes because of this. If only Alstom had the foresight to built them with an electric instead of hydraulic transmission, they might have become Bimodes, and worked !!!   

 

That's interesting, I did wonder if they had some form of retarder as I seem to remember being told that the use of retarders on buses can lead to brake squeal.

 

You do wonder if the build quality issues that have plagued the units were down in part to the problems Alstom was having in rationalising their production plants and of course the threat that was hanging over the Washwood Heath plant at the time. 

[37038]

Slightly O/T, but the main reason for the 180's poor reputation was due to th customer reducing the agreed price by around 30% after design had been completed.

 

This meant a number of rapid cost-saving measures had to be implemented, such as removal of back-up systems, cheaper components etc.

 

If built as originally planned it is likely that there would have been more of these and less Voyagers.

[jjb1970]

Surely that should be that Alstom agreed to reduce the previously agreed price by 30% at the request of the customer in order to secure the contract?

[jonny777]

I had the misfortune to travel on Adelantes when First Great Western had a habit of swapping a 2 + 8 HST for a 5 car Adelante. When I did manage to get a seat on one of those rattle traps, I could feel it move as people walked past down the aisle. The only good thing about them was that they could out accelerate an HST.

 

Anybody who thinks Voyagers are the worst inter city trains have not travelled on an Adelante.

 

 

Strangely, I was commuting from Br. Parkway to Cardiff when Adelantes were on the WR and travelled on virtually the whole fleet; but I *do* think Voyagers are the worst IC trains (having travelled on a few of those since).

Edited November 24, 2018 by jonny777

[96701]

Strangely, I was commuting from Br. Parkway to Cardiff when Adelantes were on the WR and travelled on virtually the whole fleet; but I *do* think Voyagers are the worst IC trains (having travelled on a few of those since).

Parkway to Cardiff is a mere bagatelle compared to suffering the poxy things from Pad to Gloucester.

[JDW]

That's interesting, I did wonder if they had some form of retarder as I seem to remember being told that the use of retarders on buses can lead to brake squeal.

 

You do wonder if the build quality issues that have plagued the units were down in part to the problems Alstom was having in rationalising their production plants and of course the threat that was hanging over the Washwood Heath plant at the time. 

 

Slightly O/T but yes, that seems to be true, we had a lot of issues with our "artics" for a while - a combination of introduction of less punishing schedules ( = less heavy braking) plus more emphasis on eco driving techinques (eg better anticipation, easing off sooner, so using the brakes less) seemed to coincide with a rise on squealing brakes on the older ones, plus a rise in complaints about it.  I suggested that the two factors together seemed to mean that the brakes were working less as the retarder was sufficient in a lot of cases to scrub off the speed, which meant they were getting less heat into the brakes.  Bus brakes always tend to be worse when they're cold anyway (squeaky or snatchy) so I tried switching the retarder off sometimes, and this meant the brakes were working more and heating up, quickly leading to less squealing.  A short while later retarder off switches were fitted to allow drivers to get some heat into the brakes, especially first thing in a morning.

[45125]

T

 

Don't forget the class 180 were designed with retarders to work alongside the braking system.  However, like many facets of the Adelante the retarders were not sufficiently robust so were isolated.  Can't remember why but I think there were fire risks, which of course still happen as on two of the FHT 180s recently. 

 

Perhaps there is more squealing from the traditional disc brakes because of this. If only Alstom had the foresight to built them with an electric instead of hydraulic transmission, they might have become Bimodes, and worked !!!   

The retarders were isolated mainly due to the heat that was going back in to the cooling system was causing high water temperature. Sintered pads have beeb around a while now on rail vehicles, the HST TGS that was fitted with inboard discs as trial for Eurostar used to squeal as did Eurostars.

[TravisM]

When I worked for FGW, I was told that the biggest problem was they tried fit a quart into a pint pot as the design works really well on the continent with its larger gauge. When you try to cram all the internals into a smaller space, plus having to redesign some components as well as using cheaper ones, somethings got to give.

 

We were told that the unit price was reduced at FGW’s insistence which I find difficult to believe as the leasing company would have had a huge say in that as their carrying the risk. Having said that, one of the main reasons the FGW handed back the 180’s was their ridiculously high leasing charges which led them to buying and refurbishing ex Virgin HST power cars and I think the intermediate trailers as well.

[Covkid]

So on their 20th birthday it appears that the four FHT 180s will be handed back to the ROSCO and Grand Central will become the sole operator of the class. If I were a gambling man I would put a little cash on Arriva acquiring some 125mph Bimodes to replace their Grand Central 180s, and put them out of their misery/

 

Wonder if Stadler can produce a 125mph Flirt, or how soon Bombardier can get their dual mode Aventra into production.  It would be good for the industry if it didn't have to rely on Hitachi for new 125mph diesel trains.

[DY444]

Anybody who thinks Voyagers are the worst inter city trains have not travelled on an Adelante.

 

I've travelled extensively on both and have the opposite view.  I always thought the 180s were infinitely better than the 220/221/222 variants above the solebar.   What let them down was, and continues to be, what's under the floor.

Edited November 27, 2018 by DY444