Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

[tomparryharry]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

.....and we are discussing why the Hornby Prairie does not have pickups on the pony trucks and giving examples of others that have them.

 

Good point Keith. Do you have (or, is there )  an example of a Hornby Prairie with all wheel pickup?  Just curious, that's all.  Having seen a 2MT with all wheel pickup  (and split chassis* ) I wondered if that was the case. 

 

*The late Ian Hollis.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Good point Keith. Do you have (or, is there )  an example of a Hornby Prairie with all wheel pickup?  Just curious, that's all.  Having seen a 2MT with all wheel pickup  (and split chassis* ) I wondered if that was the case. 

 

*The late Ian Hollis.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

It was this that started the off topic swerve:

 

[PMP]

4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Good point Keith. Do you have (or, is there )  an example of a Hornby Prairie with all wheel pickup?  Just curious, that's all.  Having seen a 2MT with all wheel pickup  (and split chassis* ) I wondered if that was the case. 

 

*The late Ian Hollis.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

No there isn’t as supplied.
Not having any split chassis Bachmann products I was surprised to see a couple of them have pickups. None apart from the L&Y 2-4-2t (as far as I know) have them in the current range.

Edited November 4, 2020 by PMP

[PMP]

5 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Even funnier, old chap. It's a Hornby page....

Do keep up.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Do keep up.

 

Sorry, I've only got little legs.... I guess it's not beyond the whit of man to add extra pickups. 

[Miss Prism]

By the same token, it's not beyond the whit of manufacturers to add a little bit of suspension.

 

The chassis being put under modern RTR stuff are remarkably bad value for money.

 

[The Johnster]

Many models do have a crude basicform of suspension in the form of springing to the rear axle; this is a feature of my Jurassic era Hornby 2721.  It may be more trouble than it's worth; I had to spend  some  considerable time and effort on the 2721 to get the right balance between spring pressure (Hornby actually suggest trimming the springs if you think they are too powerful in the service sheet for this chassis) and ballast.  Too much spring pressure and the rear of the loco lifts, doing no favours for pickup, and overtrimming leaves them ineffective as compensation, defeating the object and doing smooth running no favours.  Overballasting can have the same effect but can be rectified. 

 

I don't think current RTR chassis are 'remarkably bad value for money'; most of mine run satisfactorily, though there is I concede room for improvement without increasing prices.  Absolutely perfectly smooth starts and stops are still not the 'given' that they should be, and the answer I believe is slightly faster motors that develop a little more power, and higher gear ratios.  But we've come a long way since some  of the Lima steam outline mechs of the 80s...

Edited November 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

By the same token, it's not beyond the whit of manufacturers to add a little bit of suspension.

 

The chassis being put under modern RTR stuff are remarkably bad value for money.

 

Bachmann IIRC used to spring the centre axle on the 57XX panniers but I think the later ones lost it.

With jointed coupling rods, which seem to be "de rigour" these days is should be easy.

[PMP]

17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Bachmann IIRC used to spring the centre axle on the 57XX panniers but I think the later ones lost it.

With jointed coupling rods, which seem to be "de rigour" these days is should be easy.

The 57xx still have them, (as do the Bachmann Jinty 3F’s and 08’s). The 64xx’s don’t.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Many models do have a crude basicform of suspension in the form of springing to the rear axle; this is a feature of my Jurassic era Hornby 2721. 

I have a "Jurassic" era 2721 and it doesn't have any suspension.

It would be pretty pointless anyway as only 4 wheels are ever on the track due to the undersize centre wheelset.

It only has pickups on the outer wheels

Edited November 5, 2020 by melmerby

[tomparryharry]

18 minutes ago, PMP said:

The 57xx still have them, (as do the Bachmann Jinty 3F’s and 08’s). The 64xx’s don’t.

 

One wonders, therefore, if the up-coming 94xx  (note, Bachmann ) will sport a set of centre-sprung wheels, and/or pickups.  To be honest, it's only a hop, skip & jump from a High level or Comet chassis. I haven't gone down that road yet, but I'm starting to see why. 

[PMP]

6 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

One wonders, therefore, if the up-coming 94xx  (note, Bachmann ) will sport a set of centre-sprung wheels, and/or pickups.  To be honest, it's only a hop, skip & jump from a High level or Comet chassis. I haven't gone down that road yet, but I'm starting to see why. 

I’d guess they won’t have them. Saving assembly times and costs. The 57/3F/08 were all within a few years of one another, so presumably had the same design ethos. The Collett and WD 2-8-0 had centre sprung  too IIRC.

Subsequent 0-6-0 (core) type chassis from the 45xx onwards including 1F/64’s and the 0-6-0 tender types, 3&4F ‘C’ as I recall have rigid chassis.

Edited November 5, 2020 by PMP
56xx deleted from non sprung.

[melmerby]

56 minutes ago, PMP said:

I’d guess they won’t have them. Saving assembly times and costs. The 57/3F/08 were all within a few years of one another, so presumably had the same design ethos. The Collett and WD 2-8-0 had centre sprung  too IIRC.

Subsequent 0-6-0 (core) type chassis from the 56xx/45xx onwards including 1F/64’s and the 0-6-0 tender types, 3&4F ‘C’ as I recall have rigid chassis.

 

Just checked my Panniers & Jinties, they all have sprung centre axles as does both early & late solid chassis 56XXs, the 45XX definitely doesn't.

[banburysaint]

The Dapol 1980s Terrier had a sprung middle set of driving wheels, which contributed to it being light years ahead of other products of that era in the running stakes 

[MattA]

My new prairie arrived this morning. I was impressed by how quiet and smooth it was straight out of the box! After running in and subsequent running with a rake of Collets, the lack of vertical play in the wheels hasn't presented any issues yet - fingers crossed! I did observe that, although it's weighty (enough for me, not so much for others apparently) and has great adhesion, it is not very powerful compared to some of my other models (although still plenty powerful enough for the needs of my layout).

Edited November 7, 2020 by MattA

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, MattA said:

My new prairie arrived this morning. I was impressed by how quiet and smooth it was straight out of the box! After running in and subsequent running with a rake of Collets, the lack of vertical play in the wheels hasn't presented any issues yet - fingers crossed! I did observe that, although it's weighty and has great adhesion, it is not very powerful compared to some of my other models (although still plenty powerful enough for the needs of my layout).

Not characteristics others that have posted would agree with.

 

It's actually 100g less than the previous Hornby version, I've added extra weight to one of mine to improve it's adhesion.

[MattA]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Not characteristics others that have posted would agree with.

 

It's actually 100g less than the previous Hornby version, I've added extra weight to one of mine to improve it's adhesion.

I guess others have higher standards for a loco's weight compared to me. Admittedly I never owned one of the older tooling models. Regardless, I am yet to observe mine slipping when hauling a train up my own gradients.

Edited November 7, 2020 by MattA

[john dew]

1 hour ago, MattA said:

I guess others have higher standards for a loco's weight compared to me. Admittedly I never owned one of the older tooling models. Regardless, I am yet to observe mine slipping when hauling a train up my own gradients.

The additional weight seems to help with reliability rather than traction. Many users, including Keith and I have reported poor performance with stalling on track that other locos have no issues with. Various techniques have been described to correct this in the thread.

 

It sounds as though you have got a good  ‘un! Lucky guy!

 

Kind regards

[The Johnster]

On 05/11/2020 at 16:13, melmerby said:

I have a "Jurassic" era 2721 and it doesn't have any suspension.

It would be pretty pointless anyway as only 4 wheels are ever on the track due to the undersize centre wheelset.

It only has pickups on the outer wheels

Mine must be Cretaceous, then, a later period but still a dinosaur.  All the driving wheels are the same size and while it only had pickups to the outer wheelsets I have cobbled up pickups on the centre set.  It is I believe the 'latest' version, and shared a Jinty derived but retooled chassis with the J83 and LBSC 0-6-0Ts.  I believe the Jinty and the crude 08 got this chassis as well.

 

O how I wish somebody would market a version of this or the 1854 to current RTR hi fi standards...  I've worked it up as much as this t*rd can be polished, and crave for improvements that this model cannot accept.  I like the loco, she has a lovely air of faded Victorian elegance about her, a belle epoche courtesan that hasfallen on hard times in her dotage, looking a bit rough and dowdy in her austerity black G W R Caerphilly Works Grotesque, but you can see the beauty that once was...

 

I doubt that her crews in her final years at Tondu shared my feelings; she probably rode like a pig.  No doubt her main work was as a yard pilot and she didn't get 'out' much, but if Rule 1 can allow a Barry BR 3MT to Cwmdimbath, she can escape once in a while for the 'as required' (but runs every day of course) afternoon pickup; not unusual for pilots in South Wales to be rostered to duties suffixed 'or Control orders' and similar.  She gets an outing on the miners' workmans sometimes as well, looking the part with the clerestories and 4 wheelers. 

 

We've drifted a bit, how unusual!

Edited November 7, 2020 by The Johnster

[PMP]

1 hour ago, john dew said:

The additional weight seems to help with reliability rather than traction. Many users, including Keith and I have reported poor performance with stalling on track that other locos have no issues with. Various techniques have been described to correct this in the thread.

 

It sounds as though you have got a good  ‘un! Lucky guy!

 

Kind regards

I've had no issues with mine either haulage or running through Peco Streamline, Hornby Setrack, and Kato unitrack. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Mine must be Cretaceous, then, a later period but still a dinosaur.  All the driving wheels are the same size and while it only had pickups to the outer wheelsets I have cobbled up pickups on the centre set.  It is I believe the 'latest' version, and shared a Jinty derived but retooled chassis with the J83 and LBSC 0-6-0Ts.  I believe the Jinty and the crude 08 got this chassis as well.

 

We've drifted a bit, how unusual!

There have been a fair few chassis variations over the years.

Mine (R059) has an XO3 (XO4) motor driving the front axle, solid coupling rods (as with Jinty originals!) all flanged wheels but middle set undersize.

It was AFAIK the first attempt at the 2721 and used a re-jigged version of a Jinty based chassis and it says "Made by Rovex Ltd"

Later it was changed back to centre axle drive using a more compact motor, meaning the same chassis could be used for the 2721, Jinty, 08 etc.

 

The service sheet shows a traction tyre on the middle driver and jointed coupling rods

That pdf seems to possibly be the current and most common version:

ss_201f_0-6-0_1.pdf

Edited November 7, 2020 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

That's right; I've replaced the centre wheelset with one from a donor J83.  It has separate coupling rods retained by nut, not the slit head screw of previous iterations, and a different motor, driving through nylon gears.  I believe there may have been some minor retooling to the body as well; this loco always had a separate 'main' handrail, steel with brass knobs, and the rear cab handrail was moulded as a separate entity, but the front handrail and bunker handrails on mine are separate and I'm not sure this was the case on the earlier models.  The finish and printing were much improved over time as well, and the loco holds the distinction of being the only RTR loco supplied with the correct number (2761) for a Tondu loco in my period I have ever owned.  Sadly, Hornby produced it in 1946-7 G W R Egyptian Serif initials unlined green livery, a photo of it on the reepction roads at Swindon shortly after withdrawal (31/5/50) clearly shows Caerphilly Grotesque sans serif initials.  Livery colour is not easy to distinguish in a black and white photo of a dirty loco, but there is no distintion between the shade of tank sides, fronts, and the smokebox, chimney, or dome.  I have asssumed black livery and weathered the model quite extensively. 

 

She's had a new chimney, dome, and safety valve cover from a scrapped Westward 64xx, new buffers, real coal, a cab floor, crew, lamp irons, Modelu 3D whistles, cab glazing and a deployed weather sheet, work yet pending is new cab roof, and she's in the middle of a chassis strip down to attend to motor supply wires and try to improve the gear meshing further.

[PMP]

 

Here’s footage of two of them working just fine on Little Bytham, three and eight cars. If there were significant issues with this model we’d have heard far more about them, and from far more customers.

[john dew]

Well they would hardly video it stalling would they?

 

I have just reported my experience with two of the models on Granby. A layout with admittedly less than perfect track but a layout on which I successfully run a number complex automated sequences with a variety of RTR locos and RR&Co .

 

I found that I had to spend far more time getting the locos to an acceptable level of reliability than almost all my recent purchases, although  in fairness not as quite bad as the Oxford Dean Goods or DJM 14xx.
 

I love the detail on them and they are now operating acceptably but they certainly will not have my vote for model the year!

 

I am glad that you and others are happy with the models you have received. Right now I am looking forward to a better experience with the new Mogul

 

Best wishes

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, PMP said:

I've had no issues with mine either haulage or running through Peco Streamline, Hornby Setrack, and Kato unitrack. 

Ditto for me on SMP track with handbuilt points.