1989-1991 Intercity Cross Country services in the West Midlands

[sub39h]

Hi all,

 

I’m interested in knowing more about the Cross Country services that ran through Birmingham New Street and in and around the West Midlands between 1989 and 1991ish. I’ve watched a lot of videos and studied photos and I think I have some ideas but still had a few questions. My understanding is as follows:

 

1. Trains were either Class 47 hauled or there were some 2+7 HSTs mostly from the WR but also from the ER.

 

2. Class 47 trains were usually 6 coach mixed Mk2 formations with a Mk1 buffet and a single first class coach

 

My questions were as follows:

 

1. When were the MK2F RFBs introduced onto XC services?

 

2. Were the Mk2 sets ER or WR based? What sort of Mk1 buffet coaches were most commonly used?

 

3. Mk2D TSOTs - I think these were all ER based by 1989? Were any of those used on XC services like above? Were they RMBTs by then and what is the difference between the TSOT and the RMBT?

 

4. Were there any other coach types or rakes used? Mk1s?

 

5. Were any longer trains used?

 

6. Which Class 47s were used on these services and where were they stabled? Would WR 47s ever haul ER coaches?

 

7. Were declassified coaches (Mk2C/D/F ex-FOs) common on these trains? Would any Mk2F coaches still be in blue grey and awaiting 2+2 seating by then or had they all been fully refurbished and painted into Swallow livery by then?

 

8. The two rakes I have planned are as follows. Are they vaguely realistic?

 

Class 47

Mk2F TSO

Mk2F TSO

Mk2A TSO

Mk2E BSO

Mk1 RMB

Mk2D/E/F FO

 

Class 47

Mk2E BSO

Mk2D/E/F TSO x 3

Mk1 RBR

Mk2D/E/F FO or Mk2 B/C/D BFK

 

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for any info you can give me! Happy new year and happy modelling!

Edited January 1, 2019 by sub39h

['CHARD]

The XC 47s were by this time pretty well all modified with extended range fuel tanks; none were Eastern region allocated, they were all nominally Bristol based, with some leaking in from Crewe, as and when diagrams went awry.  In 1989 the allocated number range was 47801-44, this included some Crewe but mainly Bath Road locos, and was later extended to 853.

['CHARD]

You've missed out the Class 86-hauled XC services that were taken over by electrics at Coventry or New Street.

 

Regarding the LHCS allocations, they were from memory allocated to Polmadie, Longsight and Derby.  None were ER based.

Edited January 1, 2019 by 'CHARD

[sub39h]

Thanks for your reply. Wouldn’t Derby be ER?

 

I’ve seen photos and videos of 47/4s at New Street up to 1991. Would those not have been XC trains then?

 

And that’s interesting regarding the 86s - I saw those and presumed they were 2ndary WCML services, a bit like the 5-car Voyagers that sometimes run from Euston now rather than XC services. Definitely gives me a bit of operational interest if a 47 hauled train can come in and uncouple and an 86 joins and the train moves off.

[cravensdmufan]

You've missed out the Class 86

Definitely - Class 86 were very prominent on IC XC services.

 

Assuming we're talking 4mm scale here, we really must be in line for an all new 86/2 soon - preferably from Hornby to go nicely with their excellent 87.

['CHARD]

Thanks for your reply. Wouldn’t Derby be ER?

 

 

The headquarters of the Midland Railway?

[sub39h]

The headquarters of the Midland Railway?

I think I just presumed that because MML HSTs were ER that the route was too lol.

Definitely - Class 86 were very prominent on IC XC services.

 

Assuming we're talking 4mm scale here, we really must be in line for an all new 86/2 soon - preferably from Hornby to go nicely with their excellent 87.

Heljan announced a newly tooled 86 in November.

[Compound2632]

I travelled frequently between Oxford and Birmingham New Street in the years 1983 - 1992, so I can't guarantee that my memories are accurate for your period but I don't recall there being a great deal of change, although HSTs did appear towards the end of the period - they were introduced much earlier on the South-West - North-East services. Other than that, and Class 86s under the wires, Class 47s were universal; I wasn't au fait with the distinctions within the class. On trains to/from the North West and Scotland, my recollection is that locomotives were changed at Coventry or possibly sometimes Wolverhampton - everything went via Kenilworth; going up the old Great Western main line past Tyesley was an occasional Sunday treat.

 

Most carriages were air-conditioned Mark 2, again I'm afraid I'm not up to the subtleties of d, e or f. However, Mk 1 BGs and buffet cars were used. 

 

Most trains: Bournemouth - Newcastle/Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool were BG/FO/RB/SO/SO/SO/BSO - or so I think, I am willing to be corrected to BFO/RB/SO/SO/SO/SO/BG but I think there was only one Mk2 between the two Mk1s.

 

There were two trains to Scotland that divided at Carstairs - The Dorset Scot ex Bournemouth and the Sussex Scot ex Brighton. These had a buffet car in the middle; the Edinburgh portion definitely included a BFO (cheap Sunday supplementary fare for second/standard class ticket holders) but I can't recall what the first class accommodation in the Glasgow portion was. 

 

Right at the beginning of this period, c. 1984, I did travel from New St to Basingstoke in a Mk1 BCK - perhaps the last use of a brake composite, in the 19th and early 20th century the dominant long-distance through carriage.

 

Spotting in the Lune Valley in the 1980s, the first Mk 3 carriages to be seen were the buffet carriages on the London trains - but these still included a Mk 1 BG at one end.

 

Sorry rather vague but it was all 30 years ago.

 

When we were first in Reading in 1995, the Cross Country trains were still Class 47-hauled and Mk2 carriages but I'm afraid I can't say if they still had Mk1 BGs and buffets. With the reversal at Reading, the locomotive had to RUN ROUND via the middle road between the old platforms 8 and 9. Was that operation happening anywhere else at that date?

Edited January 1, 2019 by Compound2632

[TheSignalEngineer]

Haulage of non-HST XC trains by 47s and 86/2s was still the norm until Voyagers came in. In the 1980s it wasn't unusual to get a 33 on Brighton or Portsmouth services.

Edited January 1, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[Compound2632]

In the 1980s it wasn't unusual to get a 33 on Brighton or Portsmouth services.

 

I never saw one at Oxford. Did they come off at Reading or Basingstoke (if ex-Bornemouth)?

[TheSignalEngineer]

I photographed a 33 at New St on a Brighton - Manchester and another at Tyseley on Portsmouth - Leeds in the 1980s.

[DY444]

There was a booked EH 33 turn as far as New St on a FO Portsmouth - Leeds for a while in the early 80s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

For Brighton to Manchester/Glasgow see http://www.1s76.com

[TheSignalEngineer]

There was a booked EH 33 turn as far as New St on a FO Portsmouth - Leeds for a while in the early 80s.

Can't remember which thread but there's a picture of mine showing this somewhere on the site.

[Compound2632]

For Brighton to Manchester/Glasgow see http://www.1s76.com

 

That gives BG/BFK/3xTSO/RB/3xTSO/BFK for the Sussex Scot; I may be remembering the Dorset Scot but I'm fairly confident there was a BFO; also the Edinburgh portion may only have been three carriages - 2xTSO/BFO with the buffet car going to Glasgow? (I never took the train as far north as Scotland but even in the Midlands the Edinburgh portion was to be preferred for more genteel fellow-passengers.)

[wombatofludham]

On one exceptional occasion two class 73 Electro Diesels made it to New Street having replaced a duff Duff.  It's a tribute to the rugged simplicity of the English Electric diesel engines that they managed to get all that way powered by an engine that was primarily intended for off juice rail shunting and trip working.

 

Cross country workings in that period are a bit of a minefield.  Around 1987 Cross Country introduced some six car rakes hauled by Class 47s to provide additional capacity in between the HSTs on the main NE/SW corridor.  The six car rakes could keep the point to point timings better.  These usually comprised a Brake first, a Mk1 buffet and four TSOs.  Some of these short rakes also turned up on workings like Manchester to Birmingham and there are quite a few videos of these shorty rakes on You Tube.  Until the mid-90s there were regular south coast - Midlands - Edinburgh and Glasgow trains that split at Carstairs, usually made up of two six car rakes with a Brake first in each portion and a number of Mk2 seconds with either a Mk1 buffet or Mk2 micro buffet in the Glasgow portion.  Around 1993 when Intercity decided to adopt a more uniform fleet programme and to get rid of older Mk2 coaches, standard 7 car rakes made up of loco (Class 47 or 86), 5TSO (Mk2 E or F), a BSO and a Mk2 RFB.  These were introduced into service in about 1989 (so did not have the central door locking at first, but carried the INTERCITY branding from new working in rakes of Mk2 coaches in the earlier Executive livery) and for a while some ran on WCML services for a year or so but quickly moved to Cross Country.

 

The earlier min-buffet conversions of Mk2 airconditioned coaches were of two types, one batch which took out a single seating bay and adjacent lavatory, and a second batch which were converted for the new Kensington Olympia cross London services to the south east coast from Manchester, which had a larger two bay buffet area fitted with a microwave to allow a limited hot food offer.  These were labelled "InterCity Buffet" whereas the one bay coaches made do with the word "Buffet" on the window and were only capable of serving hot drinks and cold snacks.  Without referring to the History of the Mk2 book I'm sure the majority of Intercity Mk2 micro-buffets were Mk2d and Mk2c.

To be honest your best bet is YouTube, Flickr and similar sites to find formations that are of interest.  As for locos, Class 50 would often turn up on Cross Countries from both the South west and Paddington, and Class 85s were to be seen on the electric leg of Cross Country journeys including working the behemoth Edinburgh/Glasgow services.  It wasn't unusual for an 87 to work these trains and when new, Class 90s sometimes worked cross country services.

It was certainly an interesting period in terms of stock used.  In fact I'm just watching a YouTube video of trains at New St in 1989 and basically it was anything goes!

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember there being one loco hauled Manchester - Birmingham which continued to Derby.

[Compound2632]

There was a superb 4mm scale layout on the circuit a few years ago, depicting a semi-fictional section of 4-track line between Burton and Derby c. early 1990s, with accurate HST and 47 &c. cross-country formations. Quite nostalgic, in a way! And rather disturbing to think this was all closer to the end of steam than the present day...

Edited January 1, 2019 by Compound2632

[wirey33]

There was a booked EH 33 turn as far as New St on a FO Portsmouth - Leeds for a while in the early 80s.

 

At times it returned on a parcels service and then later was booked to go back on the SuO Leeds-Pompey. It strangely stabled at Banbury between Friday and Sunday.

 

33s did make their way to BNS on non-booked trains; sometimes these were services trains, sometimes the troop trains from Wool were Crompton hauled.

[wirey33]

There were also a few services which were booked an engine change at Coventry. The diesel would stable in the old goods shed road for southbound services and the electric would stable in the holding road just past the Warwick road bridge for the northbound.

[Compound2632]

There were also a few services which were booked an engine change at Coventry. The diesel would stable in the old goods shed road for southbound services and the electric would stable in the holding road just past the Warwick road bridge for the northbound.

 

I certainly remember seeing electrics lurking beyond the Birmingham end of the station.

[mjkerr]

Assuming 1989

Anglo-Scottish services were mostly Mark 2E TSO, Mark 2D BFK, and Mark 1 RBR or RMB, most allocated to Polmadie

In most cases formed TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO

In most cases the portion with the RBR would be included in the split to Edinburgh (but usually one exception Mon to Sat)

Not included the Scotland - Manchester service, which used Mark 2C

The shorter services, most allocated to Longsight used Mark 2D TSO

Class 86/2 or 86/4 between Scotland and Birmingham, again the occasional exception being Coventry (services to East Anglia)

Class 47/8 had just been introduced, so south of Birmingham there was a mix of 47/4 (both standard and long range) and 47/8

Services between the south west and north east, via the East Coast Main Line (Doncaster to Newcastle) were predominantly 7 coach HST

 

Into 1990 and 1991 reliability of the 47/8 was an issue and 47/4 continued in use

With the introduction of the Mark 2 RFO, dedicated Scotland - Birmingham services were introduced

The remaining Anglo-Scottish services swapped over to HST

The shorter services were also simplified, ideally using one 47/8 throughout the day, but all too often swapping at Bristol

 

A small number of TSO(T) were converted to RMBT, as the RFO had been completed

This is just simply a TSO version of the FO conversion, but without the ability to serve passengers within the coach (at counter service only)

Edited January 1, 2019 by mjkerr

[keefer]

The only BFOs were Mk3b (only 3 coaches, initially for WCML trains), the Mk1 and Mk2-2d coaches were BFK (there were only BSO for Mk2e/f)

Edited January 1, 2019 by keefer

[Compound2632]

The only BFOs were Mk3b (only 3 coaches, initially for WCML trains), the Mk1 and Mk2-2d coaches were BFK (there were only BSO for Mk2e/f)

 

Thanks - clearly I am mis-remembering. What I do remember is going from Reading to Oxenholm in the summer of 1995, at a weekend, upgrading to first class but then spending much of the journey looking out the windows in the gangway of the brake end!

Edited January 1, 2019 by Compound2632

[mdvle]

Heljan announced a newly tooled 86 in November.

 

The poster was talking about an 86/2, Heljan announced an 86/0.  There are visual differences and Heljan have said the other 86 subclasses may be done/redone in the future.